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-   -   Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China (http://forums.pcper.com/showthread.php?t=370305)

Andrew LB 12-23-2004 09:59 PM
Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Quote:
Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China


The Pentagon is increasing pressure on European allies over weapons sales to China, warning that lifting the European Union arms embargo on Beijing could lead to a curtailment of military technology co-operation between the US and Europe.

The EU signalled at this month's Brussels summit that it intended to lift the embargo - in place since Tiananmen Square in 1989 - perhaps as early as the first half of next year.

But Pentagon officials said EU members should expect a "very powerful reaction", particularly in Congress, if the embargo was removed. "This has the potential to be a big brawl," said a senior Pentagon official involved in China policy.

"They're talking about helping the Chinese kill Americans more effectively," said the Pentagon official. "This is not what Europeans should be doing."

Defence officials said the most likely reaction would be a withdrawal of Bush administration backing for new measures to improve military technology transfers to European allies.

"If a situation arises where European systems are pointed at American personnel and platforms, one cannot just assume we're going to continue our arm sales," said a second senior Pentagon official. "Efforts we've made to open, widen, deepen transatlantic defence industrial trade are going to be circumscribed."

Such a move would hit the UK harder than any other European ally because of its increasing reliance on US military technology to keep its weapons systems at the cutting edge. Just three months ago, Britain won congressional backing for special preferred status when applying to gain access to US military technologies, a status that could be rescinded.

Any US retaliation could also hit the UK defence industry disproportionately hard because the two biggest foreign Pentagon suppliers - BAE Systems and Rolls-Royce - are British.

In recent weeks, the UK government has tried to defuse the brewing transatlantic row by mounting a diplomatic offensive aimed at convincing Washington that the embargo's end would not lead to a flood of new exports to Beijing.

The UK effort, which consisted of a mission to Washington last week, has included British promotion of an EU "code of conduct" and other restrictions that would purportedly limit and track weapons sales to China even after the end of the embargo.

The standoff has once again put the UK in the awkward role of transatlantic intermediary, a position it has repeatedly found itself since the war in Iraq. British officials have argued that US backing for a transparent export control regime would stymie French efforts to make weapons sales more opaque.

But Pentagon opponents said the UK-backed measures were inadequate, and expressed frustration with British efforts. "The British are sort of going with the flow, and that we're disappointed with," said the senior Pentagon official. "They pick issues on which they want to be good Europeans; this is not a good one to pick."

The UK foreign office declined to comment on the specifics of last week's mission to Washington.

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/4626b21a-55...00e2511c8.html
The Stalinist EU will, no doubt, ignore our warning and continue to arm the communist red Chinese.

At their own peril.

BuiesCreek847 12-23-2004 10:45 PM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Oops! ;)

Snowball 2 12-23-2004 11:03 PM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
And why is this stance not taken when Israel sells our defense secrets and arms to China? I'm just as shocked as you are ;)

I'd guess that the we're becoming increasingly wary of China usurping our role as World #1. In any case I wouldn't say that we're really in the right in respect to telling people who they can and can not trade arms with considering our own policies, past and present trading history. I wouldn't necessarily want China ruling the planet economically or militarily but you can't start making up rules as you go especially ones that you break...well unless of course you're World #1 :p

Orangutan 12-23-2004 11:09 PM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Jesus, Andrew. You must either be willfully ignorant or exceedingly truculent. "Stalinist EU". I mean, honestly. What real university on Earth would give such a person a degree in political science of all things? Why don't you bitch and throw names around when Israel sells stuff to China?

Crap: Snowball beat me to it.

Andrew LB 12-23-2004 11:36 PM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball 2
And why is this stance not taken when Israel sells our defense secrets and arms to China? I'm just as shocked as you are ;)
I posted a thread about Israel selling tech to China a while back. And i was against their actions then... as well as the EU's now.

Jezus 12-23-2004 11:41 PM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Quote:
Why don't you bitch and throw names around when Israel sells stuff to China?
I'd like to take this opportunity to bitch that the US sells stuff to Israel.

Andrew LB 12-23-2004 11:47 PM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jezus
I'd like to take this opportunity to bitch that the US sells stuff to Israel.

So we should let them fend for themselves so the Arabs can wipe out the Jews?

Remember... they've already tried it FIVE times since the creation of Israel.

Jezus 12-23-2004 11:48 PM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Quote:
So we should let them fend for themselves
yes

Shadowmage 12-24-2004 04:10 PM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Oh jeez, why does it matter?

Communism is no longer a threat, jeez! You guys must think we're still in the cold war or something.

China needs the US just as much as the US needs China. Go to your local supermarket, and look at just how much stuff is "made in china". War would ruin both China's economy (US is #1 buyer) and the US economy (Most stuff comes from China nowadays, thanks to our capitalistic society).

Empedocles 12-24-2004 05:10 PM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Translation: the US wants the right to sell arms to China and make lots of money - how dare you try and steal our market.

Andrew LB 12-24-2004 09:36 PM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Our current largest arms buyer is Egypt, and second is Saudi Arabia. Israel is in third... and the whole list will probably be pushed back one notch by UAE in coming years since they're rapidly growing and are the one of the largest business hubs in the eastern hemisphere.

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/front_2.html

alpha_03 12-24-2004 10:04 PM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
I believe we should all arm each other with 10,000 nukes- then we would all be equal, and we would talk more before we leap- that is except, the middle east (some of africa) and n. korea.

of these the world should simply take them over and we would then be at peace.

God Bless

tucker 12-24-2004 10:06 PM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
If you think communism isn’t a threat any longer I have a cloned cat I’d like to sell you.

China has always been pretty good at manufacturing their own weapons why sell them more. China also likes to sell weapons to enemies of the United States, come to think of it so does the EU.

Andrew LB 12-24-2004 10:12 PM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
And Clinton sold of valuable "dual use" ICBM/Satellite technology to the Chinese in exchange for campaign money, among other things.

In my book thats considered treason since it puts in jepardy our national security.

Orangutan 12-24-2004 11:03 PM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
I'd like to remind you, Andrew and tucker, of that little thing known as the "Iran Contra Affair". You can read up on it here. I'd also like to point out how we gave, not sold, weapons to Osama bin Laden and friends, as well as helping out that guy known as Saddam Hussein back a couple decades ago.

Andrew LB 12-25-2004 12:33 AM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orangutan
I'd like to remind you, Andrew and tucker, of that little thing known as the "Iran Contra Affair". You can read up on it here. I'd also like to point out how we gave, not sold, weapons to Osama bin Laden and friends, as well as helping out that guy known as Saddam Hussein back a couple decades ago.

No. We supplied the enemy of the soviets, the mujahadeen things such as stinger missiles which helped break the soviet union financially with the eventual fall of communism and the freeing of hundreds of millions of poeple.

Bin Laden didn't create his Al-Qaeda organization till the late 80's.

And FYI, the arming of the muhajadeen began with Carter. One of the few things i applaud him for.

Lastly, hindsight is always 20-20 for you libs.

I don't see you bashing FDR for becoming an Ally with Stallin... who later murdered some 35,000,000 russians and put our country through 40 years of cold war.

tucker 12-27-2004 07:28 PM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Quote:
Russia and China to Hold Joint Maneuvers

2 hours, 41 minutes ago

By VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV, Associated Press Writer

MOSCOW - Once-bitter rivals Russia and China will hold a massive joint military exercise on Chinese territory next year involving submarines and possibly strategic bombers, Russia's defense minister said Monday as the two nations move to bolster already burgeoning military ties.

Many observers saw the announcement as Russia's response to a spat with the United States and other Western nations over the disputed election in Ukraine, Russia's neighbor, where the Kremlin-backed candidate trailed a pro-Western politician in near-final results.

"For the first time in history, we have agreed to hold quite a large military exercise together with China on Chinese territory in the second half of the year," Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said at a Cabinet session chaired by President Vladimir Putin, according to the ITAR-Tass news agency.

more
Quote:
After decades of rivalry, Moscow and Beijing have developed what they call a strategic partnership since the Soviet collapse. China has become the No. 1 customer for Russia's struggling defense industry, purchasing billions of dollars worth of fighters, missiles, submarines and destroyers.
Looks to me like everybody wants to sell arms to China, I’m sure this is pointed at the west but it might also be a warning toward the whole middle eastern region. I’m not really sure how India fits into the equation but I’m sure somebody will tell me.

I think this is also proof that communism isn’t on the critical list, not even the seriously ill list. With Putin and his cronies in just about all of the Russian governmental power positions I think it wouldn’t take much to see another communist Russia.

Russia and China are a pretty potent partnership…

Another Cold War anyone?

fireman_x 12-27-2004 09:54 PM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew LB
Our current largest arms buyer is Egypt, and second is Saudi Arabia. Israel is in third... and the whole list will probably be pushed back one notch by UAE in coming years since they're rapidly growing and are the one of the largest business hubs in the eastern hemisphere.
Israel is third due to the fact that we give them so much money they can afford to make their own weapons (ex. Merkava Tanks). The Arabs are not going to "push the Jews in to the sea" and you Conservatives continue to cry about, the Arab states will continue to fund the Palestinians due to the fact that they know that Israel won't use chemical or biological weapons in close proximity to their State.

Quote:
No. We supplied the enemy of the soviets, the mujahadeen things such as stinger missiles which helped break the soviet union financially with the eventual fall of communism and the freeing of hundreds of millions of poeple.
You're joking right.

Enmore 12-27-2004 10:33 PM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew LB
I don't see you bashing FDR for becoming an Ally with Stallin... who later murdered some 35,000,000 russians and put our country through 40 years of cold war.
Actually he'd done most of the murdering long before war broke out - in the 1920s and 30's. Thus your point is even more true.

Enmore 12-27-2004 10:48 PM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fireman_x
Israel is third due to the fact that we give them so much money they can afford to make their own weapons (ex. Merkava Tanks).
A large percentage of US aid to Isreal is credits to enable them to buy American armaments.

Quote:
The Arabs are not going to "push the Jews in to the sea" and you Conservatives continue to cry about, the Arab states will continue to fund the Palestinians due to the fact that they know that Israel won't use chemical or biological weapons in close proximity to their State.
During the Gulf War in 1991 the Isrealis only handed out gas masks to Jewish citizens. Not that that stopped Uncle Saddam firing Scuds at them. What makes you think Isreal wouldn't do it again?

Quote:
You're joking right.
Perhaps it wasn't the straw that broke the camels back, but it sure made it sag.

kbohip 12-27-2004 11:05 PM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew LB
So we should let them fend for themselves so the Arabs can wipe out the Jews?

Remember... they've already tried it FIVE times since the creation of Israel.
I'm not concerned with the Israeli's. They're big boys and can learn to take care of themselves. It's NOT the United States job to take care of them..or Iraq for that matter but that's a whole different discussion.

Andrew LB 12-27-2004 11:24 PM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fireman_x
The Arabs are not going to "push the Jews in to the sea" and you Conservatives continue to cry about, the Arab states will continue to fund the Palestinians due to the fact that they know that Israel won't use chemical or biological weapons in close proximity to their State.
Wow..... :rolleyes:

If you actually believe they actually want to simply live in peace along side Israel in their own little state.... you're incredibly uninformed.

They've tried in 5 separate wars so far.... and when given the chance Iraq shot SCUDS into Tel Aviv in 1991. And i'm not even considering that as one of the 5 wars.


Quote:
You're joking right.
The Soviet-Afghan war was one of the many straws that broke the camels back and brought the soviets to their knees. This ended communism in the Soviet Union, Eastern Bloc, East Germany, tore down the Berlin Wall, and much much more.

That = hundreds of millions of people. Or did you not know this? LoL.

fireman_x 12-28-2004 03:08 AM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew LB
Wow..... :rolleyes:

If you actually believe they actually want to simply live in peace along side Israel in their own little state.... you're incredibly uninformed.
How did your brain come to that conclusion when I said "the Arab states will continue to fund the Palestinians". I know there will never be peace, however I unlike you see no reason to adamantly support Israel.

Quote:
They've tried in 5 separate wars so far.... and when given the chance Iraq shot SCUDS into Tel Aviv in 1991. And i'm not even considering that as one of the 5 wars.
More information I already know. If you lived on a ranch or a farm, (lets say it's 1000 acres), would you like it if some people moved onto your land and claimed it was theirs due to their religion? I know this analogy isn't perfect but it's close to describing the Israeli-Palestinian issue. (Also the Scuds caused relatively little damage even though the Patriot missiles failed.)

Quote:
The Soviet-Afghan war was one of the many straws that broke the camels back and brought the soviets to their knees. This ended communism in the Soviet Union, Eastern Bloc, East Germany, tore down the Berlin Wall, and much much more.

That = hundreds of millions of people. Or did you not know this? LoL.
Hope your having a good time laughing by yourself. :rolleyes: Although it's true that the defeat of the Russians brought about the end of the "Iron Curtain", I was referring to the Afghan and other Middle Eastern people that the Soviets tried to take over, they were not freed, they simply went from one totalitarian government to another.

Soltek Boards 12-29-2004 02:44 AM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew LB
So we should let them fend for themselves so the Arabs can wipe out the Jews?

Remember... they've already tried it FIVE times since the creation of Israel.
We just wanted (and still want) to take back our land. Not commit genocide against the Jewish people.

madhatter256 12-29-2004 02:50 AM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowmage
Oh jeez, why does it matter?

Communism is no longer a threat, jeez! You guys must think we're still in the cold war or something.

China needs the US just as much as the US needs China. Go to your local supermarket, and look at just how much stuff is "made in china". War would ruin both China's economy (US is #1 buyer) and the US economy (Most stuff comes from China nowadays, thanks to our capitalistic society).

There are numerous countries that can take US positions' as their number one consumer, why would it matter if they are number 1. Its late, i know.

All i can say is, can't wait till May 2k5.

mr necro 12-29-2004 04:25 AM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew LB
The Stalinist EU will, no doubt, ignore our warning and continue to arm the communist red Chinese.

At their own peril.
Is this the same US that has been taking european tech for the last 50 years remakings it and passing it off as their own?

Wardibald 12-29-2004 07:13 AM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew LB
So we should let them fend for themselves so the Arabs can wipe out the Jews?

Remember... they've already tried it FIVE times since the creation of Israel.
What about the US selling(or even "giving") weaponry to Israel? Weaponry that is being used to destroy Palestinean economic and humanitarian infrastructure?

The EU has in the last years invested astronomic amounts of € in Palestinean houses, hospitals, roads,... . Money that went completely down the drain by the Israeli army. Almost nothing of this infrastructure remains.

The EU just sits through this. We would not want to "show disrespect to our grand benefactor" by mentioning this :rolleyes:
But that doesn't mean we have to like it.

Wake up, US weaponry is at this moment being used all over the world in brutal conflicts. At least the EU has a rational code for weapon sales.

Glyn_Mo 12-29-2004 07:56 AM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardibald
...The EU has in the last years invested astronomic amounts of € in Palestinean houses, hospitals, roads,... . Money that went completely down the drain by the Israeli army. Almost nothing of this infrastructure remains....
Have you a source?

Wardibald 12-29-2004 11:15 AM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glyn_Mo
Have you a source?
Ask Google and you shall recieve.

1. http://www.astm.lu/article.php3?id_article=151
2. http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.ns...ritories+?Open
3. http://www.hrea.org/lists/hr-headlin.../msg00317.html

4. http://europa.eu.int/comm/external_relations/w43/4.htm
Quote:
6. The EU is gravely preoccupied with the deliberate destruction of Palestinian infrastructure, including those financed by the EU and other donors, which hampers the economic, social and humanitarian development of Palestinians. Such destruction hinders the reform for which Israel itself has called. The EU urges Israel to put an end to this practice. We refer in this context to the letter that Minister Piqué, in his capacity as Council President, sent to Minister Peres on 29 January 2002 in which the EU reserves the right of giving an appropriate follow-up to this question

5. http://www.palestinemonitor.org/comm...rse_the_eu.htm
Quote:
The detailed inventory of damage caused to projects funded by the European Union and its Member States was made public on Wednesday, 23 January. It includes damage caused to the airport and the sea port in Gaza, the Palestinian broadcasting company, the headquarters of the Palestinian police, two schools, a research laboratory and a water treatment and pumping plant
6. http://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/rafah1004/16.htm
Quote:
Most important, U.S. funding continued to flow to the country’s leading recipient of aid. The 2004 U.S. Foreign Appropriations Act allocated U.S. $2.15 billion to Israel for foreign military financing and U.S.$ 480 million for economic assistance, and none of this was placed in doubt. In 2003, the U.S. government also granted Israel U.S.$ 9 billion in loan guarantees to be dispersed over three years, part of which is intended to help defray debts from earlier guarantees. Some of the equipment Israel purchases with U.S. aid, like the Caterpillar D9 bulldozer, is used to commit the abuses described in this report.
These reports clearly show Israel using predetermined massive attacks on civilean areas. Furthermore, the quoted damages made to EU-funded installations date from 2002, when the damage done to most of the infrastructure up until now had not yet begun.

The reports also show an extremely large US funding for the Israelian army. They also give examples in which this funding is used for civilean infrastructure damages. In broad terms, the Israelian army singlehandedly caused the collapse of the Palestinian economy.

Glyn_Mo 12-29-2004 11:27 AM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
I'm not disputing these sources as it is quite clear that the Israelis repeatedly have over-stepped the mark. However, many would argue that Yasser Arafat singlehandedly caused the collapse of the Palestinian economy?

Wardibald 12-29-2004 12:18 PM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
1)How is that possible if he's locked up in his headquarters?

2)What I meant is: no infrastructure -> no economy. It isn't that hard a concept.
It is clear by the scale and targetting of the destruction, that there is an idea behind it.

Glyn_Mo 12-30-2004 04:07 AM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Don't think that I'm some sort sort of Isareli lover (I'm definitely not), but Yasser Arafat didn't exactly pull his finger out to stop the terrorism, which is just possibly a contributing factor in making the Israelis act the way that they do.

Enmore 12-30-2004 05:36 AM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardibald
At least the EU has a rational code for weapon sales.
LOL

Oh come on. The French in particular would sell fire to the devil himself to make a quick buck.

I always liked Lenin's quote that went something along the lines of: 'The Capitalists will sell us the rope that we will hang them with". So true.

Glyn_Mo 12-30-2004 06:11 AM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Back to the actual topic, maybe it would be better for our (British) arms manufacturers to sell to China, rather than the US, as they could possibly get a larger share of the Chinese market than they do of the US market. Although BAe Systems and Rolls-Royce do supply the US Defence department, they're still pretty small fry in terms of US defence suppliers.

Makes commercial sense, then again I suppose it made commercial sense to sell Type 42 destroyers to the Argentinians too. :mad:

fireman_x 12-30-2004 08:51 AM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glyn_Mo
Makes commercial sense, then again I suppose it made commercial sense to sell Type 42 destroyers to the Argentinians too. :mad:
You Brits are still upset over the war of the Malvinas?

Glyn_Mo 12-30-2004 09:34 AM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fireman_x
You Brits are still upset over the war of the Malvinas?
HMS Sheffield, HMS Coventry and MV Atlantic Conveyor to be exact. The Argentinians bought two of the same type of destroyers from us so their pilots were able to practice their Exocet runs on their own ships in order to beat the air defence of the British ships. They managed successfully on a few occasions. The Atlantic Conveyor went down with a number of Chinooks which meant there was no troop transport so troops had to march across the Falklands.

Enmore 12-30-2004 07:07 PM
Re: Pentagon warns EU on sale of arms to China
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glyn_Mo
HMS Sheffield, HMS Coventry and MV Atlantic Conveyor to be exact. The Argentinians bought two of the same type of destroyers from us so their pilots were able to practice their Exocet runs on their own ships in order to beat the air defence of the British ships. They managed successfully on a few occasions. The Atlantic Conveyor went down with a number of Chinooks which meant there was no troop transport so troops had to march across the Falklands.
Their big battleship - The General Belgrano was the ex-USS Phoenix, a Brooklyn class Cruiser and incidentally a survivor of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour.

http://www.angelfire.com/fm/odyssey/...S_Phoenix_.htm


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