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  1. #16
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    Yes...and we all have a dozen friends who will burn us copies of things. (sarcasm) To me, prirated software is just as bad as plagiarism. You're copying something and not giving anyone credit for it. Why don't people drive around more pirated cars? Or live in pirated houses? Or own pirated appliances? Coz people are lazy and its easier to buy them than it is to steal them. Unlike software. What this comes down to is greed on the part of the theif, not on the part of the company. $499 too much for you to spend on Photoshop? I guess that means to can't have that huh? Thats life. Tough. Sure you could steal it, but does that mean its ok just to take things when you can't afford them? Oh well..

  2. #17
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    Originally posted by Duositex
    [B]Theorem:

    If Microsoft had not designed the Windows Operating system, the world would be two decades behind where it is today.
    Actually, the right quote would be "If Bill Gates hadn't stolen DOS from a friend to sell to IBM, and then stolen the idea for Windows from Apple then we might have a more open market and be two decades ahead of where we are today."

    We all seem to forget that BG&Co (Microsoft) have never had an original idea -- everything is ripped off from the actual creators. The Apple Lisa was the original 'windows'. If the near-sighted people at Apple had ever decided to be a software company instead of wanting to sell iron, Microsoft would be just another competitor in the market.

    I do not disagree with paying for what I use. But I don't 'owe' Microsoft for anything other than exactly what I use. As soon as the new Apple OS is available on intel-class microprocessors or a Linux version that has all the applications supported that I use, I will erase Windows from my machines. Until then, I feel like a Russian serf slaving for the overlord everytime I have to de-bug a windows problem.
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  3. #18
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    lol..you act as though you've been FORCED to use Microsoft products all this time.. You haven't been though. You could've supported Apple all along. And all of this about original ideas..Microsoft saw an idea, and made it better. We wouldn't be two decades ahead of where we are today if it was an open market. Look at how long it takes people to adopt new standards. Thats WITH microsoft encouraging them to do it. You think that somehow we'd magically be better thinkers if Apple had its way and Microsoft didn't steal dos? I don't.. Like I said, you can use any operating system you want. It might not be as good as Windows, sure, but hey...its your choice. Nobody is making you do anything.

  4. #19
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    Originally posted by Duositex
    lol..you act as though you've been FORCED to use Microsoft products all this time.. You haven't been though. You could've supported Apple all along. And all of this about original ideas..Microsoft saw an idea, and made it better. We wouldn't be two decades ahead of where we are today if it was an open market. Look at how long it takes people to adopt new standards. Thats WITH microsoft encouraging them to do it. You think that somehow we'd magically be better thinkers if Apple had its way and Microsoft didn't steal dos? I don't.. Like I said, you can use any operating system you want. It might not be as good as Windows, sure, but hey...its your choice. Nobody is making you do anything.
    You really don't understand market dynamics nor basic economic theory. In a perfect open market, there are 3 competitors. That drives standards, innovation, and creativity and provides us with the lowest cost based upon a competitive environment. We do not have that situation today because of the anti-competitive situation created by Microsoft and it's restrictive OEM licensing.

    I have dealt with Microsoft for years, know Gates and Baumer. I was there when MS was started, so I know exactly what I am talking about . . . not to flame you, you can have all the opinions you want, but you are really off base and have no real understanding of the true situation and how it got this way. Apple was also my customer, I have supported them for years as well as Microsoft. I have also been on standards committees and watched Microsoft refuse to support standards because it might cost them margin points if everyone could do something. "Microsoft encouraging" is B...s..t. Microsoft is controlling for their own profit margin and to protect market share not to help.

    I use Windows as a tool. I don't worship the people who created it nor do I believe that there is a greater good provided by having a monopoly. I appreciate the work of all the engineers at Microsoft that I have dealt with. I do not respect the management nor their policies which are constraining innovation in the marketplace.
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  5. #20
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    Ahh but if you had read further in your economics literature, you'd have seen smith's comments about how an open market can result in a monopoly by nature. There's no such thing as an open market, and I agree that this isn't one. Yet my knowledge of "market dynamics" has nothing to do with the simple fact that you, myself, or anyone for that matter, haven't been forced to use microsoft products. Have you? Did someone put a gun to your head? Or anyone's? Who can explain why apple has had no developer support for the last two decades? If apple had won the software war, they'd be on top wouldn't they? But instead people develope for Windows. Maybe you know why, but I don't. I do know that Steve Jobs has had an enormous hand in putting Microsoft on top simply by pushing himself to the bottom. I'm sure you were there when Jimmy Hendrix did the star spangled banner too, but that doesn't change the fact that without Windows, the world would not be where it is today. That is my point, and I'll stand by it. The GUI may have been lifted from macs, but does that make it any less true that its a product that has affected the world tremendously? An open market would have screwed us just as bad as MS ever could. I'm not saying that you worship anyone, or anything, or that Microsoft is some big benevolent helper. I never even said it wasn't a profit driven business . I simply said Windows is a very good product. Nobody is forcing anyone to use it. Anti-competitive or not, if you want to compete you have to have product, and besides Linux and perhaps Jaguar, nobody has anything comparable to Windows. You make it sound like someone invented the car that runs on water, and Microsoft purchased the idea and hid it. I'm curious, what would we have today if Microsoft hadn't messed everything up and kept us in the dark ages of computing?
    Last edited by Duositex; 10-23-2002 at 02:56 PM.

  6. #21
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    Originally posted by Renod
    You know how to define crime: monopoly and price fixing and forcing customers to pay in advance for upgrades they may never need.
    Isn't this extortion, and isn't it a federal crime?

  7. #22
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    Originally posted by Duositex
    I'm sure you were there when Jimmy Hendrix did the star spangled banner too,
    Actually, I was there. That's why I wear hearing aids in both ears today.
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  8. #23
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    I had a feeling you were lol. Seriously..I'm not attacking your integrity as someone who knows a lot about the industry, I'm simply saying I don't think MS has harmed consumers as much as it has helped them. Sure they charge a lot for software, but how are they supposed to be the biggest software company on earth without doing so? Aren't they allowed to be the biggest in the world? After all...this isn't a communist country. What did may have been ethically deplorable, but the simple fact is, they've made a lot of people's lives easier...correct? Btw. I'm impressed that AMDmb's forums have people using them that have been around for the whole kit n' kaboodle.

  9. #24
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    WinXP has millions of lines of code. Think of the time programming, testing, debugging, re-coding, etc. It takes a lot to send out a good OS. Plus, it will last for years. Just break it down. $94 at NewEgg. Say it lasts only 3 years until you decide to upgrade. That comes out to $2.61 a month. But we happily spend $50 a month for high-speed internet. Sure, MS makes a truckload of money, but what's wrong with that?

  10. #25
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    I hadn't even thought of it that way. If you divide up the cost over the time you use it, you're talking about very very little money in comparison to some things we actually NEED. Electricity, for example, costs a whole lot. I'd be willing to be that the electricity that it takes to run a machine with Windows XP on it is more expensive than the cost of the operating system on a per month basis. Yet we don't go off complaining to our utilities very often. I think that we need Windows just as much as we need electricity in some cases, yet we don't have to pay a great deal for it at all. Thats a good point whipper.

    [EDIT]
    Just did the math..so far I've paid $15.60 per month to run Windows XP. Thats nothing compared to the cost of owning a car, and its arguable that you can accomplish a lot more with Windows XP.

  11. #26
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    Originally posted by Duositex
    Yes...and we all have a dozen friends who will burn us copies of things. (sarcasm) To me, prirated software is just as bad as plagiarism. You're copying something and not giving anyone credit for it. Why don't people drive around more pirated cars? Or live in pirated houses? Or own pirated appliances? Coz people are lazy and its easier to buy them than it is to steal them. Unlike software. What this comes down to is greed on the part of the theif, not on the part of the company. $499 too much for you to spend on Photoshop? I guess that means to can't have that huh? Thats life. Tough. Sure you could steal it, but does that mean its ok just to take things when you can't afford them? Oh well..
    Judging by your tone I think you miss my point, being that you don't have to be in Russia to have access to cheap, easily available pirated software. Copying software is more akin to theft than it is to plagiarism. If I took said software, reverse engineered it, made a few cosmetic changes and said I wrote that program, then it would be plagiarism, you're talking intellectual property as opposed to the monetary factor which is the most direct result of piracy. Software piracy isn't 'ok', but I think a lot of people have a tough time realizing that it is an actual crime with consequences and maybe they need to be educated on the subject. I will qualify it by saying the cost of piracy is a built into cost of the software we buy. Most companies don't lose money or else they wouldn't be in the business. Do you think if piracy was somehow stopped completely prices would fall? Doubtful.
    I have very little sympathy for Microsoft, I don't condone people pirating Microsoft operating systems, but I don't altogether condemn it either. To be perfectly honest when I was a poor student pretty much every piece of software on my PC was pirated. Do you think that I should have done without software on my machine because I could't afford it at the time? Maybe, but I sure don't feel guilty about it. Now I have a decent job and can afford to buy software and being a developer myself I encourage everyone to pay for the software they like. Show your appreciation to the developers of the software they like and use and they will continue to put out good products.

  12. #27
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    Originally posted by Duositex
    Theorem:

    If Microsoft had not designed the Windows Operating system, the world would be two decades behind where it is today.

    Discuss.

    Personally..I'm too grateful not to give them a little cash. You think every classroom would have unix systems in it by now? Hell no. We'd all be using chalk and library books still. Without Windows, the world would not be what it is today. Microsoft Windows is THE operating system. Not "an" operating system. When you're all very old, and you look back in history, you're not going to remember build 123.434x66 of linux which spawned the information age. You'll remember Windows 3.11 or Windows 95, and Microsoft Internet Explorer. Linux is for everyone who thinks there's a better way, and knows there might be a better way, but refuses to admit that they can't come up with it.
    All of that theory assumes you ignore one thing: OS/2. I used OS/2 WARP3 when it first came out, which was well before Windows 95 was first released, and it blew Win95 away. Even though MS had time to pick apart OS/2 and see what made it tick and use some of those theories and ideas contained within to make a superior product they still couldn't. Sure WinXP will decimate any OS/2 today but back then OS/2 WARP3 was far ahead of the original release of Win95. What happened? IBM chickened out.

    I'm not saying people shouldn't pay for their MS products, I just don't think that if MS had died in 1994 we'd be struggling with 16 bit OS's and no GUI's. Maybe it wouldn't have been IBM, but someone would have filled the gap.

  13. #28
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    I think that piracy is a result of poverty and inadequate education or a lack of jobs. Poor people cant buy stuff, such as a Microsoft OS, so they rip it off.

    I think that there are some poor people who need to be smart enough to be part of the market system.

    They need the proper education, social values.

    I have seen people that have been marginalised by the system.

    They are poor. They are suffering. I pity them in a way. However, it happens because they dont care about what is really going on.

    I think that they could be fools. However, I think that the people that pirate do so because they think its ok.

    But, since I have been to school, I have been exposed to values that some people do not see.

    Life is tough at times.

    I think that it would be better to help pirates to be part of the economy rather than to condemn them.

  14. #29
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    I don't think poverty is the issue.. Poor people don't have CD-RW equipped computers and broadband internet connections now do they?

    I didn't miss anyone's point. I don't have any sympathy for Microsoft either, nor do I think prices would fall if people stopped pirating software. My discussion point was about the impact of the Windows operating system on society. Not about how good OS/2 warp was. I didn't say that we'd be struggling if it weren't for windows, I said Windows had a major impact on the world, and if it weren't for that operating system, it might not be raining so hard in south TX. Or perhaps the patriots would be 6 and 0 instead of 3 and 3. YOu see my point I hope. I understand what you're saying, and I agree that paying for every piece of software is impossible for the common man. I haven't paid for every piece, but when I have the money to, I plan on doing for the reasons you suggested Archer...to support the companies and developers, and to let them know I think the product is first rate. OS/2 Warp failed because Microsoft essentially paid IBM not to continue developing it. But that was fine for big blue because it had a deal with MS in terms of packaging software with hardware. At least I'm fairly certain that was the case.

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