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  1. #31
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    Re: Maybe all you evolution advocates can help me with this one.

    Originally posted by wardog25
    I'm just not sure I understand. Are they exercising their constitutional right to have their children live in ignorance?
    Sounds like the ways of the Soviets before Gorby came along...
    "How do you like me now, chinstrap?! How do you like...huh?!" - Captain Murphy

    "Just the bang and the clatter as an angel hits the ground."

  2. #32
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    school never taugfht me anything you guys couldn't have already told me.
    Corsair 800D / Corsair TX750 PSU
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    The member formerly known as SuBX3r0 HEAT

  3. #33
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    if you think god doesnt exist your kidding youself and being foolish..

    how could there not be a god?

    how do you explain stuff like LOVE.. did that evolve from a single cell organism..

    if you wish to ignore god.. then thats your choice, he gave us that right..

    but to say that he doesnt exist is absurd.
    where it dont get chili
    l3d007@yahoo.com

  4. #34
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    God was a creation of man. I'm so tired of being bombarded with messages of god by my peers at school. It's a public school. Separation of chruch and state. I don't care if you're not an employee- I have a right to separate church form state.



  5. #35
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    E coli can show changes in a petri dish. I have no knowledge here but I will say this, it is E coli at the start of the experiment and it is E coli at the end. No proof of evolution. Also, how could you be sure that every single E coli at the beginning were all identical.
    Any change in gene frequencies (including previously non-existant ones) is evolution. You're right in that not every single E coli could be identical. However, if one observes the genes that code for proteins which impart resistance to penicillin, then I can guarantee that there will be changes there.

    DNA is an extremely long, complex and organic. How did it arise from inert materials? How would it support itself even if it happened to occur? It cannot feed itself or replicate itself without other very complex systems evolving simultaneously. Viruses require a host for survival.
    Actually, DNA by itself is a relatively simple polymer! What's complex about it is its operations and the coordination of all the accessory proteins. While molecular biology on this level isn't my focus of study, I remember one of my professor saying that ~3.5 billions yrs ago, there were self-replicating molecules. Apparently RNA was one of them -- and RNA has many neat features that make it very versatile. DNA is pretty much identical to RNA with the exception of a different base sugar and 1 different nucleotide. I don't know the specifics on the transition from RNA to DNA - based organisms.

    For DNA to replicate, all you need is DNA Polymerase, DNA Primase, Ligase, and some energy source ATP (adenosine triphosphate).. I may be missing some stuff here; it's been a while since I've done any PCR. Most of DNA's complexity is at the functional and organizational level.

    Metamophosis does indeed impart advantages at each stage but how does a worm change into a butterfly, a seemingly different species. How many worms died before it got the process right. The process would have had to been perfect from the outset or you would just have a lot of dead worms. It is not like they could try again if they got it wrong.
    Metamorphosis in all organisms is the result of hormonal changes which have a direct effect on the organism's DNA. It's quite similar to human growth phases, except for the obvious physical differences before and after the stages. Those organisms in which undergoing metamorphosis caused death will be weeded out of the population; thus, the proliferation of those genes will not be passed on. Because of the continuum of variation within populations, some of them will continue to survive and change. This cannot be statistically ruled out.

    Hmm.. If I remember correctly, metamorphosis evolved once - which means that all insects that undergo metamorphosis evolved from that ancestor.


    Sexual reproduction in humans is a far cry from bacteria exchanging genetic material. It would have required simultaneous, instantaneous, and perfect evolution. Quite impossible.
    The evolution of sex is a very complicated issue, and it has its own separate category within evolution. There's evidence that sex may have originated from DNA repair. Why can't mutation and natural selection account for this? It's statistically possible, and selection is working to favor sexual repro. There are many hypotheses about the origin of sex.

    And how about that eyeball. Until it is working perfectly evolution says it is a useless thing that should disappear since it has no function. Again, instantaneous, full function is required.
    Why does it need to work perfectly? Think of it this way: Organism A has evolved light-sensing cells and can determine when danger approaches by a change in light intensity. Organism B has no such trait. Organism A is going to have a selective advantage and outbreed organism B (and perhaps B will become extinct).

    Depending on an organism's environment vision may or may not be beneficial. Eyes of higher organisms are refinements on previous designs. There is genetic evidence of this.


    It's mathematically impossible to completely rule out that all the traits are the result of selection and random processes.

    Hope these explanations are adequate, there's a lot more info and details out there on the internet -- try to read the papers on university sites as these tend to be more accurate and complete.

  6. #36
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    I am not convinced by creationism, sorry. Everything I've seen is fairly lame. It's not like I've never heard the creationist arguments before. I have, and I believed creationism for years, and the truth is it really does hold alot less water than evolution.

    Creationism goes against my own theory that everything just was at one point or another, and life always existed, except not always conventional form, maybe not even in a biological form, and that life which isn't biological is not in our dimension.

    After all, who can honestly tell me I'm absolutely wrong? Wouldn't my theory actually fit every religion since the beginning of time? Why doesn't it fit? Because, Christianity is logically one that it doesn't fit with. Some say disregard the Old Testament. So what are we to believe of the new? We do know that a great deal of the OLD Testament is false, right? If that's true, then Genesis could be false as a whole? GASP!
    ...Does anybody else feel like Congress simply bailed themselves out? Isn't that what they really mean by a bailout?

  7. #37
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    Originally posted by notdrugged
    We do know that a great deal of the OLD Testament is false, right? If that's true, then Genesis could be false as a whole? GASP!
    No one has ever proven any part of the Bible false, old or new. Many parts people have believed were false have proven to be true through archeological digs.

  8. #38
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    God is love: God beget Love or Love beget God. If the latter, then, that's more proof against creationism. You see, "is" simply means "=".
    ...Does anybody else feel like Congress simply bailed themselves out? Isn't that what they really mean by a bailout?

  9. #39
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    I didnt expect this conversation to go on this long. If there are no objections...Ill move thread with redirect to TLR.

    JimZ

  10. #40
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    And its a great thread BTW

  11. #41
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    Originally posted by bk94si
    No one has ever proven any part of the Bible false, old or new. Many parts people have believed were false have proven to be true through archeological digs.
    I take it you've never read the Bible. Okay. So, building houses out of wood is still a sin. And some garbage about not washing your hands until the third day or washing your hands on the seventh day after touching a dead person, blah, blah, (it goes on about what to do after touching a dead-person, and it's totally insane), this is how to avoid sin?
    Okay.

    Archaeological digs prove that the Old Testament are a good history study. It doesn't disprove the possibility that much of the OLD testament is really just a journal of whatever some of the brightest people felt like writing down.

    Actually, that's exactly what it is.
    Last edited by notdrugged; 09-13-2003 at 08:51 PM.
    ...Does anybody else feel like Congress simply bailed themselves out? Isn't that what they really mean by a bailout?

  12. #42
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    ghtHere's my take on the whole thing...

    I believe in both.. Something or someone must have put those tiny little bacteria on earth and allowed evolution to take place..

    I agree with evolution... cos it happens.. I see it in bacteria everyday that try to stop us killing them with antibiotics.. they evolve by natural selection and gain antimicrobial resistance to our drugs..

    I don't see a problem that I come from bacteria.. DNA is known as the universal life currency.. its found in every living organisms.. aside from viruses.. they have RNA... some have DNA..... but that is a different matter..

    There is no possible way to prove creationism.. but by inference, we have to somehow accept that life did not just happen in bacteria or a protozoan... something must have triggered it off. There is no way to prove the Big Bang Theory. Likewise, there is no proof of a giant asteroid hitting earth and wiping out dinosaurs 89 million years ago... but we can infer...

    my 2c
    BAck to setting up speakers..

  13. #43
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    Originally posted by lidistick

    I believe in both.. Something or someone must have put those tiny little bacteria on earth and allowed evolution to take place..

    And as always the old puzzle of what came first, the chicken or the egg. The only logical explanation is evolution, but then one says something would have to have created the viruses and bacteria that supposedly everything came from...but then again, who created the creator? So the creator always existed, I guess. Furthermore, how can the creator exist in the midst of nothingness. Something has to sustain the fabric of the creator...or has the universe simply always existed...

    How do you explain that the creator is completely aside from what exists...Does that automatically mean there is another dimension? The crazy parallel universe idea. Who denies that possibility? I don't really, but who created the parallel universe? Ah, someone else in another parallel universe, I see.
    ...Does anybody else feel like Congress simply bailed themselves out? Isn't that what they really mean by a bailout?

  14. #44
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    Originally posted by notdrugged
    So, building houses out of wood is still a sin. And some garbage about not washing your hands until the third day or washing your hands on the seventh day after touching a dead person, blah, blah, (it goes on about what to do after touching a dead-person, and it's totally insane), this is how to avoid sin?
    How exactly does this prove anything is false? Those were laws set down for the Jews to follow. They were to protect them from unclean things, to separate them from Gentiles, to atone for sins (depending on which practice you are talking about). As a Gentile, I do not fall under the law (in fact the Jews are no longer under the law either - they just haven't recognized it yet). The New Testament establishes a whole new covenant between man and God.

    Also, someone posted earlier that religion was crammed down his throat at school. Well, funny what a different perspective will do. Try going to a public school when you don't believe in evolution.

  15. #45
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    ok, ok, I realize this is mostly a scientific thread, but since the archaelogical aspect was brought up, I will post some info. This answers several of the questions asked here recently.

    http://www.rae.org/bibref.html

    Wardog

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