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  1. #46
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    I am no scientist, biologist, or chemist but let me do my best here...
    bk94si, plese tell us what you do, how old are you and your educational background. Seems like all you attened was some church and thats all you want to know because thats all you will accept. I do not waste time trying to educate someone like that because its hopeless.

    You still seem to confuse Evolution with the method and theory on how Evolution has cause what we see today. Evolution is a FACT of science, just like gravity. Get thee to a museum to see the evidence of the FACT. It is not debatable simply because you cannot accept it and it goes against what you believe. There are people who still believe that the earth is flat and the sun orbits the earth. Just because thats what they believe doesn't disprove the FACTS. Again get thee to a museum to see the evidence with your own eyes.

    Now given the FACT that Evolution happens, the theory of evolotion trys to explain what we see today in living and extinct organisms. Its a theory because we don't know with 100% certainty which base pairs mutated in organism X at precisely what time that gave organism X an advatange over organism Y so that organism X successfully competed against organsim Y into extinction. Given we cannot go back in time, and much of the history of Evolution pre-dates the existance of Man it will remain a theory. Its a proven theory because many scholars agree with it. Many scientist spend careers here coming up with valid theories of evolution on specific species.

    So, hopefully this post has taught you the difference between the FACT of Evoltion and the Theory of Evolution.

    If not, you must have, or be taking the short bus to school. Or should.

    Also, I think you mistakenly think that everything in the bible must be taken with 100% literaly. Much of the bible are stories with a message. Its the message your supposed to listen to, and not to be literal about the story. I accept this view and so do most people.

  2. #47
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    Originally posted by bk94si
    How exactly does this prove anything is false? Those were laws set down for the Jews to follow. They were to protect them from unclean things, to separate them from Gentiles, to atone for sins (depending on which practice you are talking about). As a Gentile, I do not fall under the law (in fact the Jews are no longer under the law either - they just haven't recognized it yet). The New Testament establishes a whole new covenant between man and God.

    Also, someone posted earlier that religion was crammed down his throat at school. Well, funny what a different perspective will do. Try going to a public school when you don't believe in evolution.
    So the old testament was true until the new testament, but whatever the new testament references to the old is still true.
    That's one good way to justify the Bible, but it's still not logical to me. I believe the Old Testament is an indicator of the knowledge of the people in that time and date, which probably wasn't very high in comparison to today's standards. I would say they were somewhat superstitious and gullible. Obviously, Jesus couldn't be so radical as to question the creation. Whose to say they didn't just kill people who didn't believe in it...LOL, they did that in "more civilized" times. Heck, they killed Jesus because he was still radical in other references, a genious peasant calling himself the son of god, etc, guess he thought he might get away with that since everyone believed in creationism. Somebody had to. Check it out, it was my dad.

    IMO, Jesus was the unlikely hero. Everyone likes the underdog, and to see so much intelligence and persuasive ability from a peasant was likely unheard of until he was born. It's human nature, and now we have a wonderful book about the evolution of the mind. Call me a pessimist, it would be fair.
    Last edited by notdrugged; 09-13-2003 at 11:05 PM.
    ...Does anybody else feel like Congress simply bailed themselves out? Isn't that what they really mean by a bailout?

  3. #48
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    bk94si, Evolution is the change in gene (allele) frequencies over time in a population... if you don't know basic genetics then of course theres no way that the definition above means anything to you... hence my next sentence...

    I don't think you really "know" what Evolution is... Evolution IS a fact, Tau Neutrino showed you a way to see it... I really don't want to hear that crap about evolution is a theory... I'm a science major, i UNDERSTAND its just a theory... but by that same reasoning gravity is just a theory, lots of things you "take for granted" in life are just theories... I would suggest you read some Undergraduate or higher literature on evolution, highschool science books just don't do it justice. As far as all the arguments that the earth is younger than the approx 4bill yrs, almost all the actual scientists admit its out on a limb and then alot of the people using 'scientific evidence' are bible belt fundamentalist christians who just quote some facts to the average churchgoer, and then go on and scare the congregation with in depth, repetitive study of Revelations... thats not the purpose of church in my view but here in Texas that leads alot of ignorant people to
    say some really FUNNY things. I went and lobbied for evolution at the state capitol last week and i saw both the for side and the against side and lemme tell you... I saw people blame evolution for racism, terrorism and 9-11, the economy, all sorts of stuff...

    It seems to me that if the case for the theory of evolution as the origin of life were as strong as these parents act as it is, they would not be bothered if their children learnt the pros and cons. But it seems they are afraid their children will decide that the theory of evolution doesn't hold water.
    The theory IS MUCH stronger to someone who has even the slightest above high school understanding of biology and geology... but they should teach shortcomings, but NOT the world is young debate... too much religious manipulation in there...

    There are a myriad of other experiments using naturally occuring incidents such as the Grant's El Nino studies on Galapagos finches and so many scenarios that we can produce allelic change due to artificial selection. Take this example. Drosophila flies impart GENETICALLY the tendency to fly up or down. So you put a population into a contraption that seprates the ones that fly up or down and then you breed the downsxdowns and upsXups for several generations. Now run one of the 2 sets through the exact same contraption. You'll find more than 80% flies will fly the direction they were bred too. I just don't see how thats not evolution...

    Bacteria imparting antibiotic resistance IS evolution... why do you think the Dr's are like "make sure you take ALL your pills"; they know and fear that one day we won't be able to make antibiotics due to universal resistance... and have you ever noticed that over the years you're never getting the same antibiotics anymore? Thats cause amoxicillin and penicillin aren't used like they were used to too. When i was a kid it was take amox and get better; but now amox is used mostly for acne, and abscessed teeth; of course there are other uses for it but its lost its "general all purpose broad scpectrum antibiotic" status that it used to have...

    Think about this... millions of people all across america are using the same if not same group of antibacterial soaps... multiple times a day, every day of their lives... and studies have shown that over the past 10 years more and more bacteria are staying alive even through vigorous washing... I'll try and find the link to the study... very interesting reading...


    What about explaining the origin of mitochondria? They have their own unique set of DNA different from the cell which they are in... "that means all you humans have little things inside your cells that w/o them you would die" The current endosymbiont theory shows that a bacteria was once invaginated into a cell and slowly incorporated its own DNA into the cell...

    Mitochondrial DNA is so close even among totally different species that we can almost even date when 2 species' common ancestor existed.

    man... i hate people who just holler up what they were raised to say... and don't turn that back on me... my family is a complete mix of well educated to no educations, high society to po white trash, and as it must be in science, all evidence shall be based on observations.

    Feel free to flame me cause i'll be sober by the time i check this thread again
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  4. #49
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    Originally posted by jrmillerUT
    invaginated
    Now that's a good word.

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  5. #50
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    Originally posted by wardog25
    ok, ok, I realize this is mostly a scientific thread, but since the archaelogical aspect was brought up, I will post some info. This answers several of the questions asked here recently.

    http://www.rae.org/bibref.html

    Wardog
    LOL, prophesy. Here's a prophesy: A great donkey with a no. "49" stamped on his skin will run and jump into the ocean. Wtih a shift of the earth and great tide, The wrath of God will smite the coast from top to bottom and will seperate and become smaller than originally, and what land is left will be abandoned, and many will perish.

    heh, heh, someone told me it was possible. I'm sure I could make things alot more obscure and make tons more prophesies that of course will eventually happen one way or another.

    I imagine you could give a dollar to some prophets on the streets of NY city, just like you could back then in the ME.
    ...Does anybody else feel like Congress simply bailed themselves out? Isn't that what they really mean by a bailout?

  6. #51
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    Wow! Went out for a while and I see it is pile on Brian time. You all keep acknowledging theory and then saying fact in the next sentence. There is a difference between the two, you know. And, please you are straining the limits of my brain talking about mitochondria. Theories have been proven false before. Just recently I read that, despite the "fact" that the speed of light has been taught for years, the latest research is saying that is in fact slowing down. The main thing I am trying to say here is that evolution should be taught as a theory, not as a fact, and that the shortcomings should be honestly addressed as well.

  7. #52
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    that the speed of light has been taught for years, the latest research is saying that is in fact slowing down
    OK its official. Brian aka bk94si takes the short bus. Why do you even bother bring this up when "mitochondria" strains your brain. Think I'm better off talking to a crack head on the street.

    bye y'all...i'm out of this thread.

  8. #53
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    Originally posted by bk94si
    tau_neutrino

    I am no scientist, biologist, or chemist but let me do my best here...

    E coli can show changes in a petri dish. I have no knowledge here but I will say this, it is E coli at the start of the experiment and it is E coli at the end. No proof of evolution. Also, how could you be sure that every single E coli at the beginning were all identical.

    DNA is an extremely long, complex and organic. How did it arise from inert materials? How would it support itself even if it happened to occur? It cannot feed itself or replicate itself without other very complex systems evolving simultaneously. Viruses require a host for survival.

    Metamophosis does indeed impart advantages at each stage but how does a worm change into a butterfly, a seemingly different species. How many worms died before it got the process right. The process would have had to been perfect from the outset or you would just have a lot of dead worms. It is not like they could try again if they got it wrong.

    Sexual reproduction in humans is a far cry from bacteria exchanging genetic material. It would have required simultaneous, instantaneous, and perfect evolution. Quite impossible.

    And how about that eyeball. Until it is working perfectly evolution says it is a useless thing that should disappear since it has no function. Again, instantaneous, full function is required.
    I don't think evolution suggests anything evolved to perfection, just from what it was to what it is now. It's us who like to think that we are in a state of perfection currently. Even given the high level of function of the eye, what's to say that it cannot or will not become a better eye in the future? We have no way of knowing what we cannot know. We are what we are. Would better sight under lower light conditions be an improvement?
    "I despise people who go to the gutter on either the right or the left and hurl rocks at those in the center." - Dwight D. Eisenhower



  9. #54
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    Originally posted by Apogeal1
    I don't think evolution suggests anything evolved to perfection, just from what it was to what it is now. It's us who like to think that we are in a state of perfection currently. Even given the high level of function of the eye, what's to say that it cannot or will not become a better eye in the future? We have no way of knowing what we cannot know. We are what we are. Would better sight under lower light conditions be an improvement?
    Cats and birds of prey have way better sight than any human. simply because if they didn't, they would not survive.
    Our senses have evolved to the point that we have a balance between smell, sight and hearing and touch. and an acute coordination between them. This makes us versatile and not reliant on one sense.

    and BTW, the speed of light is not slowing down. its constant except when near a black hole.

    Cheers.

  10. #55
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    Originally posted by Apogeal1
    I don't think evolution suggests anything evolved to perfection, just from what it was to what it is now. It's us who like to think that we are in a state of perfection currently. Even given the high level of function of the eye, what's to say that it cannot or will not become a better eye in the future? We have no way of knowing what we cannot know. We are what we are. Would better sight under lower light conditions be an improvement?
    What I was trying to say was at some point the eye, or the other processes I mentioned, is totally nonfunctional. Not that they were perfect.

  11. #56
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    Originally posted by lidistick
    and BTW, the speed of light is not slowing down. its constant except when near a black hole.
    I will take your word for it. It was something I read somewhere and I can't remember where.

    How about something like the sun's rate of shrinkage and billions of years of time making it too hot on earth billions of years ago? Anyone have any thoughts on that?

  12. #57
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    Wow! Just back from the inlaws and I must say this thread turned into a whopper!

    tau_neutrino...Mellowman...you two are my new heroes! Thanks for all the great information!
    Last edited by nxtrastout; 09-14-2003 at 08:06 PM.
    The only difference between a madman and myself is...I am not mad.
    --Salvador Dali

  13. #58
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    Evolution Is the only theory for the origins of man..A theory based on the foundation of civilization...Science..The only known tool for observing and describing replicatable observations regarding our enviroment...Since We are a nation of Atheiests, agnostics, and a multitude of religions our schools are a secular institution.. They teach science based knowledge...This is a fundemental set of tools for observing and interacting with our world that crosses all culutral/lauguage barriers... The various understandings of the origins of man based on religious teachings should be left to each individuals church or religion teachings.
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  14. #59
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    I believe there is indeed a God, however I have no clear proof my belief is correct. I believe we were "created" by God and that his tool for creating us was, and is still, evolution. I believe the process is by no means complete and that "we" (dem dere humans) are certainly NOT the end of the process, or that we are even at the end of our own evolutionary process. I believe evolution is happening throughout the universe, that stars evolve, galaxies evolve, our planet evolves, we evolve, in fact everything evolves. Even living creatures.

    I believe that the advancements of knowledge and improvements in health are part of the evolutionary process, even if they are arrived at by choice or intelligence. In other words, a chimpanzee who learns to use a tool and passes it on to offspring is advancing the rate of evolution for chimpanzees.

    As a fan of football for three decades, it's quite clear to me that the American athlete has evolved, and isn't done doing so.

  15. #60
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    Originally posted by lidistick
    Cats and birds of prey have way better sight than any human. simply because if they didn't, they would not survive.
    Our senses have evolved to the point that we have a balance between smell, sight and hearing and touch. and an acute coordination between them. This makes us versatile and not reliant on one sense.

    and BTW, the speed of light is not slowing down. its constant except when near a black hole.

    Cheers.
    Good point, but that coordination between the senses as you point out may still improve, or not. We can only know what it is now, not all the factors that will effect us in the future. With our technilogical resources and street lighting it may not affect our survival.

    About the speed of light, its speed may remain constant except in the presence of a gravitational anomaly like a black hole, but it may not be constant over time. It may not be as fast as it used to be.

    ON THE CONSTANCY OF THE SPEED OF LIGHT
    "I despise people who go to the gutter on either the right or the left and hurl rocks at those in the center." - Dwight D. Eisenhower



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