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  1. #1
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    "Compassionate Conservative Christians" Strike Again!

    http://money.cnn.com/2004/09/17/news...ex.htm?cnn=yes

    Conservatives urge P&G boycott

    Christian groups go after Crest, Tide due to company's opposition to Cincinnati anti-gay statute.
    September 17, 2004: 7:00 AM EDT



    NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Conservative Christian groups are urging a boycott of two of consumer product maker Procter & Gamble's key products, charging the company is aligning itself with gay rights groups, according to a published report.

    The New York Times said Friday that James Dobson of Focus on the Family and the Rev. Donald Wildmon of the American Family Association are angry at P&G for a statement on the company's internal Web site opposing an anti-gay rights statute in its hometown of Cincinnati. The law exempts gays and lesbians from special civil rights protection.

    The two influential conservatives charge that by opposing the Cincinnati statute, the company is joining a push to allow same-sex marriage. They are urging supporters to boycott Crest toothpaste and Tide laundry detergent.

    "For Procter & Gamble to align itself with radical groups committed to redefining marriage in our country is an affront to its customers," Dobson told the paper.

    Procter & Gamble spokesman Douglas Shelton told the Times the groups are mixing two unrelated issues. Shelton said the company opposed just the Cincinnati statute and not efforts by the group to amend the Ohio Constitution to ban same-sex marriage.

    "The issue that these organizations are trying to put in our laps is one that we have not taken a position on," he said.

    Conservative Christian groups have also criticized the company, the nation's largest television advertiser, for putting ads on what they consider racy television programs.

    In the 1980's, a rumor spread through evangelical Protestant churches that the company was connected to Satan. The company eventually filed libel suits against individuals it said were spreading the rumor.

    What was all that in the Bible that I read about tolerance and kindness towards one's fellow humans?
    Promote then, as an object of primary importance, institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened.

  2. #2
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    Re: "Compassionate Conservative Christians" Strike Again!

    I dont think conservative Christians have a lock on intolerance. I believe both extremes are irritating.

    http://www.canyon-news.com/artman/pu...ticle_1804.php

  3. #3
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    Re: "Compassionate Conservative Christians" Strike Again!

    apparently their definition of "human" is different

  4. #4
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    Re: "Compassionate Conservative Christians" Strike Again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangutan
    What was all that in the Bible that I read about tolerance and kindness towards one's fellow humans?
    Kindness and tolerance towards ppl yes, but not the action. You are confusing the two. Christ does not exhort Christians to "accept" any wrong deed. Otherwise, that would not set the Christian apart from those who commit them.

    Again, a fundamental difference between what Christ calls for, and your comment.

  5. #5
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    Re: "Compassionate Conservative Christians" Strike Again!

    I dont think conservative Christians have a lock on intolerance. I believe both extremes are irritating.
    No, they don't, but they seem to be the most widespread, most widely growing, and most influential in the United States. Secularism is going the way of the Dodo in favor of intolerant Christian extremism. I understand the ACLU's decision, though I don't know if I agree with it in this case. I don't think it was something akin to the Ten Commandments, but merely a recognition of actual history for California.
    Promote then, as an object of primary importance, institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened.

  6. #6
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    Re: "Compassionate Conservative Christians" Strike Again!

    Quote Originally Posted by jimzinsocal
    I dont think conservative Christians have a lock on intolerance. I believe both extremes are irritating.

    http://www.canyon-news.com/artman/pu...ticle_1804.php
    SO TRUE, JIMZ. The great LIBERAL HYPOCRISY.

  7. #7
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    Re: "Compassionate Conservative Christians" Strike Again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangutan
    No, they don't, but they seem to be the most widespread, most widely growing, and most influential in the United States. Secularism is going the way of the Dodo in favor of intolerant Christian extremism. I understand the ACLU's decision, though I don't know if I agree with it in this case. I don't think it was something akin to the Ten Commandments, but merely a recognition of actual history for California.
    I tend to have a different perspective. I think it is the other way around, the promoting of immoral and unethical behaviours as acceptable, and defining those opposed to such as intolerant. That is what is becoming widespread.

    For Christians and their organizations to NOT push back, is what would make a Christian hypocritical, unlike liberals who preach tolerance, and are inherently intolerant.

  8. #8
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    Re: "Compassionate Conservative Christians" Strike Again!

    SO TRUE, JIMZ. The great LIBERAL HYPOCRISY.
    What an informative and worthwhile contribution.

    Kindness and tolerance towards ppl yes, but not the action. You are confusing the two. Christ does not exhort Christians to "accept" any wrong deed. Otherwise, that would not set the Christian apart from those who commit them.

    Again, a fundamental difference between what Christ calls for, and your comment.
    Tolerance for all beliefs and kindness towards people, is what I was saying. "I don't agree with what you believe, but it is your right to believe them".

    But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
    The attempt to influence legislation and government on the basis of religious beliefs is where your tolerance should come into play. You cannot be tolerant of others when you have governmental mandates based in your own beliefs.

    I tend to have a different perspective. I think it is the other way around, the promoting of immoral and unethical behaviours as acceptable, and defining those opposed to such as intolerant. That is what is becoming widespread.

    For Christians and their organizations to NOT push back, is what would make a Christian hypocritical, unlike liberals who preach tolerance, and are inherently intolerant.
    Where the hell are you getting this stuff? How are "liberals" intolerant? To you, some things are immoral and unethical. That's where your religious tolerance is supposed to come into play.
    Promote then, as an object of primary importance, institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened.

  9. #9
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    Re: "Compassionate Conservative Christians" Strike Again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangutan
    No, they don't, but they seem to be the most widespread, most widely growing, and most influential in the United States. Secularism is going the way of the Dodo in favor of intolerant Christian extremism. I understand the ACLU's decision, though I don't know if I agree with it in this case. I don't think it was something akin to the Ten Commandments, but merely a recognition of actual history for California.
    Huh? Do you actually live in the United States and have any appreciation for how society has changed in the past 50 years?

    "Secularism is going the way of the Dodo in favor of intolerant Christian extremism."

    So all these actions to remove any hint of Christianity from anything remotely connected to "government" represent the extinction of secularism?

    Used to be we had Christmas recitals in school, now they're "holiday" or "seasonal" affairs. Used to be common to see depictions of shepards around a manger at places other than churches. Used to be that nudity and extreme profanity only existed in "X" rated movies. Used to be that divorce and homosexuality were openly ridiculed by the vast majority.

    I won't deny that we've made a lot of progress by abadoning "traditions" of old and there's still room for improvement. Proclaiming that secularism is actually losing ground strikes me as a baseless claim, however. Quite to the contrary, it seems that religious displays, particularly those of a Christian theme, are under growing attack. Most probably, the objective truth to the matter is that select members on either side have escalated the noise level, making those with an opinion but lacking strong feelings think "the other side" is putting on a full court press.

  10. #10
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    Re: "Compassionate Conservative Christians" Strike Again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangutan
    What an informative and worthwhile contribution.
    I'm sorry you feel that way, but I believe it is a valid point. As a generalization, liberals do preach "tolerance". However, when confronted with situations which conflict with their values, liberals tend to become intolerant. Look at JimZ's article. A fine example. Why does a cross in a public symbol offend so many who are supposedly "tolerant"? Is that not hypocrisy?

    Tolerance for all beliefs and kindness towards people, is what I was saying. "I don't agree with what you believe, but it is your right to believe them".
    I didn't say tolerance for beliefs or actions, I said ppl. You have avoided my point. Christians are expected to love all people, and allow them to have their beliefs, but not to passively accept such beliefs that are immoral or unethical, as the Bible has decreed.

    You may not believe in God, I accept that and have no-ill will towards you, and in fact, I should prolly pray for you. However, Christians are expected to uphold the Word of God. How can a Christian, then, NOT oppose those beliefs or actions which violate the Word of God? How can they "tolerate" them?


    Where the hell are you getting this stuff? How are "liberals" intolerant? To you, some things are immoral and unethical. That's where your religious tolerance is supposed to come into play.
    Getting angry and swearing will not solve anything. I have done so in the past, and it was clearly wrong, and I apologize to all for whom I have offended.

    Now, you present two points.........liberal intolerance, and religious tolerance. I will deal with each.

    First, liberal intolerance.......I believe I have answered that above.

    Second, religiouos tolerance. As I have said, Christians are called to love their neighbors and those that hate them, and to be "longsuffering". However, that does NOT mean that they should be TOLERANT of things God has deemed immoral or unethical. Like it or not, the Bible teaches homosexuality as "wrong" or "immoral" or whatever semantic word you like. So yes, "gay ppl" are to be loved by Christians, but their actions are NOT to be tolerated. I defy you to show me where that is described in the Bible.

    Again, I respect you do not believe in God or the Bible. Such is your free will. But do not expect a Christian of good conscience to NOT respect the Word of God when confronted with issues that clearly are against the Word of God.

    I say this as a question, so I do not judge. Does failure to respect the Christian view and belief, and their right to defend the Holy Word of God, not constitute intolerance?

  11. #11
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    Re: "Compassionate Conservative Christians" Strike Again!

    I'm sorry you feel that way, but I believe it is a valid point. As a generalization, liberals do preach "tolerance". However, when confronted with situations which conflict with their values, liberals tend to become intolerant. Look at JimZ's article. A fine example. Why does a cross in a public symbol offend so many who are supposedly "tolerant"? Is that not hypocrisy?
    Because it appears to be an endorsement by the government of one particular religion. The government should have nothing to do with religion, period. That is why the ACLU takes up such cases.

    I didn't say tolerance for beliefs or actions, I said ppl. You have avoided my point. Christians are expected to love all people, and allow them to have their beliefs, but not to passively accept such beliefs that are immoral or unethical, as the Bible has decreed.
    I didn't avoid your point, I clarified my original one.

    You may not believe in God, I accept that and have no-ill will towards you, and in fact, I should prolly pray for you. However, Christians are expected to uphold the Word of God. How can a Christian, then, NOT oppose those beliefs or actions which violate the Word of God? How can they "tolerate" them?
    How did Jesus tolerate such actions? If you think that all actions that oppose your religion should be squashed, you are most likely living in the wrong country.

    Second, religiouos tolerance. As I have said, Christians are called to love their neighbors and those that hate them, and to be "longsuffering". However, that does NOT mean that they should be TOLERANT of things God has deemed immoral or unethical. Like it or not, the Bible teaches homosexuality as "wrong" or "immoral" or whatever semantic word you like. So yes, "gay ppl" are to be loved by Christians, but their actions are NOT to be tolerated. I defy you to show me where that is described in the Bible.
    This is where we disagree, because I think that you can be a good Christian without taking the Bible literally.

    Again, I respect you do not believe in God or the Bible. Such is your free will. But do not expect a Christian of good conscience to NOT respect the Word of God when confronted with issues that clearly are against the Word of God.
    I believe in "God", just not your version of it. And according to the basics of Christianity, one does not "believe" in the Bible. Christian beliefs are rooted in God Incarnate, not God Inlibrate. This has been discussed ad nauseam here before, however.

    I know many Christians who do not agree with homosexuality but also do not actively try to discriminate against them, even accepting them as equals.

    I say this as a question, so I do not judge. Does failure to respect the Christian view and belief, and their right to defend the Holy Word of God, not constitute intolerance?
    Where did that come from? It would be intolerant, yes.

    Huh? Do you actually live in the United States and have any appreciation for how society has changed in the past 50 years?

    "Secularism is going the way of the Dodo in favor of intolerant Christian extremism."

    So all these actions to remove any hint of Christianity from anything remotely connected to "government" represent the extinction of secularism?

    Used to be we had Christmas recitals in school, now they're "holiday" or "seasonal" affairs. Used to be common to see depictions of shepards around a manger at places other than churches. Used to be that nudity and extreme profanity only existed in "X" rated movies. Used to be that divorce and homosexuality were openly ridiculed by the vast majority.

    I won't deny that we've made a lot of progress by abadoning "traditions" of old and there's still room for improvement. Proclaiming that secularism is actually losing ground strikes me as a baseless claim, however. Quite to the contrary, it seems that religious displays, particularly those of a Christian theme, are under growing attack. Most probably, the objective truth to the matter is that select members on either side have escalated the noise level, making those with an opinion but lacking strong feelings think "the other side" is putting on a full court press.
    The actions of the '60s-era revolutions are still happening today. There are those who were participants or students of participants, and they are the ones leading the war against religion's involvement in government. There seems to be a growing backlash (as evidenced by this forum and administration) against the events of the '60s and what they brought about. Extremist Christianity is merely one facet of that backlash, as it serves to be a focal point around which to gather support and forces. You are correct in that each side is more vocal, but I have little doubt that Extremist Christianity will grow in numbers and power in the coming decades. I agree that the noise level has escalated, but I believe it is a foreshadowing of the future.
    Promote then, as an object of primary importance, institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened.

  12. #12
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    Re: "Compassionate Conservative Christians" Strike Again!

    @ Orang,

    Of course "gay ppl" should be "accepted", I believe I said that. However, that does not mean that a Christian accepts homosexuality as acceptable, nor that they should not speak out against such.

    Paul, in his many letters to the churches, chastised and corrected the believers for accepting or participating in things which violated the Word of God. Or Christ Himself, as delievered to John to the Seven Churches in Revelations.

    Yes, Christians believe in God, and accept salvation through Christ, our Saviour and Lord. And not every aspect of the Bible is literal. Jesus's many parables are not "literal", but confer a greater Truth. To say that the Bible can be subjected, though, to a view other than what it says is purely wrong.

  13. #13
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    Re: "Compassionate Conservative Christians" Strike Again!

    MyVo,

    It used to also be that we burned witches, didn't allow women to vote and made people of color slaves. Removing the dominance of one religion from the government of a multi-cultural multi-faith society is just making things even for everyone. I think many Christians find this difficult as the US was founded by Christians and was effectively a Christian society. Christians , unlike others, have never really felt excluded at school, work or in their daily lives.

  14. #14
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    Re: "Compassionate Conservative Christians" Strike Again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangutan
    http://money.cnn.com/2004/09/17/news...ex.htm?cnn=yes

    What was all that in the Bible that I read about tolerance and kindness towards one's fellow humans?
    Um, yeah... As much as I disagree with their viewpoint, since they aren't targeting gay people or harassing them or any other such thing, they are certainly within their rights to NOT BUY whatever they choose not to buy. If you don't like it, I suggest you go out and but LOTS of Proctor and Gamble products to make up for their boycott.

    Nothing like the liberal left decrying someone else's right to free speech.

  15. #15
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    Re: "Compassionate Conservative Christians" Strike Again!

    Quote Originally Posted by nuke
    @ Orang,

    Of course "gay ppl" should be "accepted", I believe I said that. However, that does not mean that a Christian accepts homosexuality as acceptable, nor that they should not speak out against such.

    Paul, in his many letters to the churches, chastised and corrected the believers for accepting or participating in things which violated the Word of God. Or Christ Himself, as delievered to John to the Seven Churches in Revelations.

    Yes, Christians believe in God, and accept salvation through Christ, our Saviour and Lord. And not every aspect of the Bible is literal. Jesus's many parables are not "literal", but confer a greater Truth. To say that the Bible can be subjected, though, to a view other than what it says is purely wrong.
    Hey nuke. While I don't agree with the position, I do hold their right to their opinion as sacred. Free speech means ALL speech, especially speech that is not popular. Most of the left seems to have forgotten that.

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