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  1. #46
    Joined
    Dec 2000
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    5,051
    Dust, thanks for trying to get out of looking at the facts. One court did find that port scanning isn't illegal, but that the act of using the information or scanning program to intentially damage another system is illegal.

    Dust is it illegal to look up addresses in a phone book, of course not. On the other hand if you use it to commit mail fraud, or use it to harrass someone (The Harm clause.) then yes it becomes illegal.

    I have to deal with this issue all the time Dust, so I do have to know what I can charge someone with...

  2. #47
    Joined
    Jun 2001
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    2,034
    But bryan your missing the point. Yes it's legal to look up addresses in the phone book. But there is a huge difference between just looking them up or going over there and checking wheter or not the doors and windows are locked. That's intent! Who said i was trying to get out of looking information up. Im the only one here who has actually given you the article sections and numbers to the state and country statutes. You gave me an article about a court case by 'bob' or whatever. weren't you the one that told 'me' not to believe articles from zdnet in a past post.
    Last edited by DustSmoke; 06-20-2001 at 08:34 PM.

  3. #48
    Joined
    Dec 2000
    Posts
    5,051
    Hows about not cross posting, and maybe setting up a seperate thread or forum for this. I think we've either bored, confused, and mangled this thread to death.

    Wonder if Ryan is thinking about kicking us for not staying on topic or even in the right thread.

    Might want to head over to general topics Dust, I got a thread for your pearls of wisdom.

    If anyone else has some time to spare the fun of laws and the Computer, come on over. ( You can't let me and Dust have all the fun )
    Last edited by Bryan; 06-20-2001 at 09:32 PM.

  4. #49
    Joined
    Apr 2001
    Posts
    86

    Lightbulb My take on cable vs. dsl

    Okay, now that I've actually experienced BOTH cable and DSL connections (as well as dial-up, ugh. But that's in the far past), I can actually say how I think that they stack up.

    As far as the technical arguments go, I'll leave that to the guys above, who seem more than able to give that sort of information. My take is purely from a user viewpoint, and from my experiences with both so far.

    First, background info:
    My cable connection was through the Cox Cable television company, and was in the Newport News area of Virginia. At the time I signed up, I wasn't informed of any sort of caps, either download or upload (just some small print stating that they reserved the right to do so).

    My ADSL connection is currently through Ameritech.net, and is currently the only residential connection that they offer. It's a 768/128 download/upload rate connection.

    Okay, now to the actual comparison.

    Cable:
    The cable modem actually provided more bandwidth, but it was only really usable in those sites that test for such things (dslreports.com, etc.). When testing, I actually had a wide range of results, even between one button press and the next. For instance, one time, I might get 60kb/s and the next I was hitting closer to 1Gb/s downstream. Upstream rates were much more consistently around 80kb/s (so my company must've capped it). During normal use for daily activities on the net (and for gaming, which I'll come back to in a second), my average transfer rates downstream were close to 80kb/s, with surges to 150 or 160 kb/s not uncommon. On a few extremely good sites (most notably MS's download sites), I could see closer to 360kb/s consistently. However, that was mainly because of the proxy that the ISP operated, which tended to make those same sites scream.

    With cable, I was explicitly forbidden from running any sort of internet site on my connected machines (be it game servers, web sites, ftp, etc..)

    As far as gaming goes, I play mostly first person shooters (UT most of the time). In that scenario bandwidth tends to not be nearly as important as the overall latency, and here's where I had the most heartache with the cable connection. My pings varied wildly from one instant to the next. This made leading targets with weapons an unpredictable exercise for me. This lead to some interesting things happening. I'd connect to servers running custom maps, and when maps changed, I'd usually be one of the first ones into them (high bandwidth = faster download). Then, once a few more people got in, I started getting slapped around. One other annoying issue with the cable connection for gaming was that most servers I connected to exhibited a moderate amount of packet loss- the kind that makes players either appear to move in a direction they didn't, or makes them disappear and reappear at random intervals.

    ADSL:
    I recently moved to the Chicago area, and in the area where my house is cable modems aren't available, but DSL is (through my choice of SEVERAL companies). I chose the quickest, most hass-free provider (I hope, hehe) at the cost I want to spend at the moment, which turned out to be Ameritech, the local phone company. The downside to this move is that for not too much more (besides equipment fees), I could probably have gotten a faster connection though one of the other companies. But then I'd be back to dealing with several different companies for the same internet connection.

    I've ran the same bandwidth tests on this DSL connection that I ran on the cable modem, with predictably lower maximum reports. However, my overall results are much more consistent with the DSL, with most sites showing somewhere between 550 and 650 kb/s downstream, and 140-150 kb/s upstream. I miss the proxy'd sites, especially MS, since downloading ie updates takes quite a bit longer without it. However, all other sites tend to load and transfer files at a rate at or above what I normally saw with my cable modem.

    With ADSL, I can run any sort of server I like (though I doubt I will try it, unless I decide to pony up for the faster business class connection). I even asked this question of my provider's customer service department as I was ordering, just to make sure.

    In the gaming arena, I'm now extremely happy with my choice. My pings are much more stable, and lower overall. As well, I rarely see any packet loss on game servers.

    Conclusions I've come to:
    For typical use that is mostly reading web pages, sending and receiving e-mail, chatting, downloading files, and the like, I'd probably go with cable thanks to the generous bandwidth and the proxy server.

    For anyone that says that games are the single most time-consuming activity that they do online, I'd say go with DSL.

  5. #50
    Joined
    Jul 2001
    Posts
    7
    I think that was really important here is that the original poster of this thread was trying to ascertain which service to get. Well, what do you want to do with it? If you are using it to play games on line then it would probably be important to you to not lose bandwidth (DSL) as more users jump in. An important note to make is that as more users jump onto a cable line (CSLAM) then the bandwidth for all the users on that CSLAM get reduced bandwidth (you may be a 4.0 Mbps and then drop to 384Kbps and wonder what the hell is going on). If you are downloading huge files (staroffice, etc) and no gaming then cable is probably going to be fine. I have DSL in CT from Snet, not the best service in town but realitively inexpensive $39.99 per month w/minimum upload of 128 Kbps and minimum download of 384 Kbps (ive clocked it at 1.5 Mbps). Is it the best? No way (anyone seen OC 48?). It is important to remember just a few years ago that everyone was happy with 56 Kbps, now no one can live with it. I guess it is the nature of humans to want/demand the fastest/coolest/sleekest of anything despite if its really needed or not. Also, the speed test at dslreports is okay but as the site states it is a useless statistic. Latency is the bandwidth killer and the true test of your speeds will be downloading a file (larger than 1 Meg) from your providers site and time it to see how long it takes.

    And always remember the age old saying:
    The only difference between men(women) and boys(girls) is the size, price and speed of their toys.

  6. #51
    Joined
    Feb 2001
    Location
    The rainy city (Umm...Seattle)
    Posts
    164
    I have DSL. Why?

    -It is the only service available in my area (Big thing )
    -It is slightly more secure (They're both getting better, but cable still has some problems there)
    -I don't have to worry about slowdowns in peak traffic times (At least when I'm connected to fast servers)

    That's why I go with DSL. If you're going to be downloading 2 GB files in the middle of the night, maybe cable is what's best for you. If you are going to be surfing after getting home from work (IE. 7-9PM), then maybe something with a more constant connection (DSL) would fit your personality better.
    There once was a man with no signature,
    And he was cool.

  7. #52
    Joined
    Jun 2001
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    2,034
    I'll have to agree about the dslreport's statistics worthlessness. It's really like me being in Atlanta and you being in Denver and we both drive to LA and whoever gets there first gets the prize! Where I have a ferrari and you have a yugo. haha

    I guess it is in some general vacinity of something usefull to one person testing at different occasions on the same service. (expecially you cable service users) But looping packets back and forth between joey and his server out in zimbabwe really has no realevince to actual speed but what kinds of things are happening that particular moment acrost the north american backbone, the African backbone, and the entire spread of the Atlantic. Oooooooo another example is;

    It's like saying, how loud can you shout acrost a radomly populated arena (and be understood) at someone in particular at any given moment on a 24 hr day, 365 days a year. (if you both stayed there all hours of the day of course)
    http://dustsmoke.com/images/dustsmoke_logo.gif

  8. #53
    Joined
    Apr 2001
    Posts
    86
    Okay guys. DSLReports was just an example to get the point across. I've actually tested it with LOTS of sites, including (especially) sites that I download from. This not only gives me an idea of the general speed I'll get from different areas, but also something near the maximum transfer rates I can expect (I repeated the tests a few times at each site, at different times and days, to help account for network load a bit). I know it's still heavily reliant on the state of the backbone and the route between me and the target. The main point is that the DSL is more consistent, mainly because I don't share a branch with other users (as cable users usually do, except when they're the first user in their neighborhood). And fwiw- ping DIDN'T usually affect my bandwidth with cable, other than causing a minor delay before a server would start transfering data (a delay equal to how long it took my request to get received and data to start reaching my machine). The bandwidth between my machine and the server is only affected mainly by the traffic on the line (ie. there may be 2 lanes on a highway, but only one open).

    It may take 450ms to get my response to a server (sucky routing), but as long as the route's not choked with traffic and I have a large pipe, I'll still be streaming (for example) 1Mb per second over that pipe (meaning once it starts arriving, it will take no time at all to get it all). On the other hand, it may take only 10ms to get the response, but if I only have 250kb bandwidth available, it'll still take 4 times as long to get that file once it starts arriving.

    This is actually backed up by the test downloads I've run from the UT servers I play on (lots of custom maps). I originally had a ping of roughly 150ms to those servers on cable. When I downloaded the maps, it took me around 2 minutes. I have reformatted my system since I moved, so I had to redownload the maps. This time I have a 40ms ping over DSL. It took my closer to 4 minutes to download the files. My ping was great, but I STILL had to wait longer because my pipe wasn't nearly as large. The ping DIDN'T make it faster. It had NO real effect on the time to get a set amount of data, other than the initial request overhead.

  9. #54
    Joined
    Apr 2001
    Posts
    86
    Uh, what I was getting at is that I basically agree that DSL is normally better for games, and CAN be better for other stuff too (if you spend the bucks for a large enough amount of bandwidth).

    Also, that I disagree that latency is a bandwidth killer (unless you're timing out, of course). Server load and network usage between you and the target machine, as well as the narrowest part of the pipe between you and there have the real effect on the bandwidth. (If the server's on 56k, you won't see faster than 56k speeds, even if you ARE on cable, etc..) Network load and the route affect the ping more than the size of the pipe (I've seen 56k users with better pings than I had, rarely, on some game servers).

    Clear as mud now?
    Last edited by SnakeEyes; 07-03-2001 at 11:15 AM.

  10. #55
    Joined
    Mar 2001
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    137

    U guys all REALLY suck

    I'm totally pissed at the broadband industry. While many of you have multiple high speed options, I'm stuck with a shitty 24K phone line connection with no DSL or cable access in sight. My only option is satallite that will cost me $700 up front and $60 per month.

    Meanwhile, there's a digital trunk cable that runs along the road less than a mile from my house.
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  11. #56
    Joined
    Jun 2001
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    2,034
    I was just specifically saying that, "if you want to shell out the cash" there is nobody out there anywhere that can tell me or anybody unless they don't know anything about it. DSL is muuuuch faster than cable. Heck, DSL the technolodgy is faster than a full T1 (Down) and now VHDSL is 1mb faster than full T3's (down). By no means does that mean you'll actually go faster than frame relay do to the pysical differences of them both. But you could pay a difference of 400 for DSL and 1100 for T1 (why alot of IS geeks are getting DSL these days)

    That was an example. Cable technolodgy (for what most people use it for) is faster....... but for not much more, people like me are very happy spending the extra few bucks to dictate over our internet minions without some "tech" calling our houses telling us we cannot do this anymore.

    I see it like this, having cable is like riding the bus, you never ever know what you are going to get or run into going someplace. DSL you get control over alot more things to where I would say is like having your own car, and if you think it is too slow, you can spend some money on it and trick that sucka out. (with much higher limits due to the technolodgies of both) What people don't realize is that the internet is so much more than just "a fast connection" It entails so many more aspects if you use them. Not all of you do and for looking at webpages, having cable is the best bang for your buck.... If that's all you need and will never need anything more,....... Get cable!!! But if you love the idea of going "free willy" style like me. I get DSL and configure my own options and decide what I can do and what I cannot do. (Not all DSL carriers are like this though, just most of them)
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