View Poll Results: Do you support this legislation?

Voters
26. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, saying the pledge should be a priority

    3 11.54%
  • Yes, but let's tackle more important issues first

    8 30.77%
  • Doesn't matter to me one way or the other

    2 7.69%
  • No, I don't want my child to be programmed

    8 30.77%
  • There are schools that don't already recite the pledge???

    5 19.23%
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Results 16 to 30 of 68
  1. #16
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    Re: Bill Requiring Pledge Of Allegiance In School Passes

    How do you want to intrepret "liberty and justice for all"??? It can be intrepreted in dozens of ways... including the scenereo I said.

    Heck... 40 years ago.... gay marriage was just as rediculous in the minds of Americans as the scenereo i presented.


    Dude.... and lose the canned responses. Get back to the topic at hand.

    Or do you agree that older men should bang 15 year old girls because its their right?


    ... you child molestor!

  2. #17
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    Re: Bill Requiring Pledge Of Allegiance In School Passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew LB
    How do you want to intrepret "liberty and justice for all"??? It can be intrepreted in dozens of ways... including the scenereo I said.

    Heck... 40 years ago.... gay marriage was just as rediculous in the minds of Americans as the scenereo i presented.


    Dude.... and lose the canned responses. Get back to the topic at hand.

    Or do you agree that older men should bang 15 year old girls because its their right?


    ... you child molestor!
    I'll post a "canned response" every time you post your "canned response". In any case, I've said it before and I'll say it again. Consenting adult citizens should not be prohibited from doing whatever they want with each other provided that no one else's rights are being violated. I could care less if someone wanted to marry twenty other people at once. As long as they do so with all parties willing and able to end the relationship whenever they so choose, it's fine by me. A 15 year old should be allowed to have consensual sex with his or her peers; the "three year" rule should apply in such cases as well.
    Promote then, as an object of primary importance, institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened.

  3. #18
    Joined
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    2,701

    Re: Bill Requiring Pledge Of Allegiance In School Passes

    Quote Originally Posted by baghdad bob
    i believe that is the translation if played backwards.

    "
    ..."lluf sgab eerht ,ris ,sey ,ris ,seY
    ?loow yna uoy evah ,peehs kcalb ,aaab ,aaaB"
    fo erom eb ot gniog ti si ,rO ?egairram xes-emas tpecca ot etats txen eht eb ot gniog si ,od yeht sa lla rof ecitsuj dna ytrebil ni gniveileb ,nagihciM naem siht seod ,oS
    ........mmmmH
    ".lla rof ecitsuj dna ytrebil htiw ,elbisividni ,doG rednu noitan eno ,sdnats ti hcihw rof cilbupeR eht ot dna ,aciremA fo setatS detinU eht fo galF eht ot ecnaigella egdelp I""

    bb
    So, I started reading your post and then I realized I've rarely been so pleased about my inability to speak in tongues... Merci beaucoup
    Last edited by Robert3; 03-16-2005 at 01:05 AM.
    What the genteel demand is something of themselves. What the vulgar demand is something of others.
    The true church is one's own heart.
    It has been my experience that those who proclaim the world is going to hell in a handbasket are the same ones who are leading the way there with their grip fixed firmly on the handle.
    Why can't you find god? Everyone knows he lives in a little black box.
    A carp who deals in red herrings is a traitor to his species.


  4. #19
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    Re: Bill Requiring Pledge Of Allegiance In School Passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangutan
    I'll post a "canned response" every time you post your "canned response". In any case, I've said it before and I'll say it again. Consenting adult citizens should not be prohibited from doing whatever they want with each other provided that no one else's rights are being violated.
    So what about your desire to take "equal rights" away from children? Or the laws passed which violate the constitutions call for equal rights for all Americans?

    ... awaits canned response....


    A 15 year old should be allowed to have consensual sex with his or her peers; the "three year" rule should apply in such cases as well.

    Yet you're taking away the constitutions call for "equal rights" for all Americans.

    ... what kind of "Libertarian" are you btw? Some odd sect?

  5. #20
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    Re: Bill Requiring Pledge Of Allegiance In School Passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew LB
    So what about your desire to take "equal rights" away from children? Or the laws passed which violate the constitutions call for equal rights for all Americans?

    ... awaits canned response....

    Yet you're taking away the constitutions call for "equal rights" for all Americans.

    ... what kind of "Libertarian" are you btw? Some odd sect?
    There have been numerous judicial decisions regarding the rights of children. Typically they are not afforded the same rights as full citizens, thus throwing them into a class of partial citizens. The 14th Amendment asserts that no state can deny citizens rights or privileges. Hence, you are incorrect. For the record, I am me. I hold libertarianish views on many things, while also holding various Green and so-called "liberal" views on others.
    Promote then, as an object of primary importance, institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened.

  6. #21
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    Re: Bill Requiring Pledge Of Allegiance In School Passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangutan
    "Remind our children of what our country is built on"

    Right, like compulsion? I forgot that volition is what those damn communists like to talk about. We God-fearing Americans don't want us none of that there "violition" stuff. Chalk another one up for the "conservative" Republicans in power today. Waste your time on other things, rather than this tripe. I'm tired of these asinine "conservatives" legislating such utter nonsense and authoritarian garbage. Had I a child in Michigan, my ass would be in court tomorrow protesting this crap. You're really going to teach children to respect their country with this forced crap. Why not teach them history and let them make up their own minds? Oh, that's right, critical thought is evil and liberally indoctrinating.
    I voted yes, but let's tackle more important issues now. I don't think reciting the Pledge of Allegiance or pride in one's nation is tripe. When I went to school we said it, I did not feel forced into anything, teach them history and let them decide to what? hate or love their country? IMO if you had a child I would love to see your ass in another country.




  7. #22
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    Re: Bill Requiring Pledge Of Allegiance In School Passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1
    I voted yes, but let's tackle more important issues now. I don't think reciting the Pledge of Allegiance or pride in one's nation is tripe. When I went to school we said it, I did not feel forced into anything, teach them history and let them decide to what? hate or love their country? IMO if you had a child I would love to see your ass in another country.
    Why is that so often the response of those on the Right? "Go to another country and (insert action here)." I don't get that mindset. Do you gain any sort of insight into why your country is "great" through compulsary activity? Fine, you said the Pledge in school; so did I. However, this bill requires schools to "set aside time for the Pledge of Allegiance". I've already outlined why the pledge is tripe, and I notice that no one has addressed those points. And what's so wrong about teaching children to think for themselves and make their own decisions? Are you that worried that people will not blindly follow the Pied Piper of Patriotism? Is school simply about teaching children what to believe rather than teaching them how to create their own beliefs? I was under the impression that education is to serve the interests of the learner. The "liberal arts" are designed to liberate people from oppression and ignorance. Forcing learners to recite some pledge does not fit into that ethos.
    Promote then, as an object of primary importance, institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened.

  8. #23
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    Re: Bill Requiring Pledge Of Allegiance In School Passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangutan
    Why is that so often the response of those on the Right? "Go to another country and (insert action here)." I don't get that mindset. Do you gain any sort of insight into why your country is "great" through compulsary activity? Fine, you said the Pledge in school; so did I. However, this bill requires schools to "set aside time for the Pledge of Allegiance". I've already outlined why the pledge is tripe, and I notice that no one has addressed those points. And what's so wrong about teaching children to think for themselves and make their own decisions? Are you that worried that people will not blindly follow the Pied Piper of Patriotism? Is school simply about teaching children what to believe rather than teaching them how to create their own beliefs? I was under the impression that education is to serve the interests of the learner. The "liberal arts" are designed to liberate people from oppression and ignorance. Forcing learners to recite some pledge does not fit into that ethos.
    Good, it should be said, h3ll people should also know the National Anthem by heart as well. It's pitiful when someone who becomes a citizen in this country through naturalization goes and hangs up a flag, says the pledge of allegiance, as well as sings (knowing the words) the National anthem, afterall they have endured real hardships compared to this country's whining elite. The left always complains over this, they don't acknowledge in the least how those on the right are "forced" to pay for abortions, and entitlement programs or if they want creationism taught in schools as well (what about letting those taught decide on this), lets not forget our a good portion of our wonderful teachers pushing the politics of the left in schools, but GOD forbid if the left has to recite the allegiance. As I stated before, IMO, if one gets their panties in a twist over the Allegiance go to a country then you need not worry about it.




  9. #24
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    Re: Bill Requiring Pledge Of Allegiance In School Passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1
    Good, it should be said, h3ll people should also know the National Anthem by heart as well. It's pitiful when someone who becomes a citizen in this country through naturalization goes and hangs up a flag, says the pledge of allegiance, as well as sings (knowing the words) the National anthem, afterall they have endured real hardships compared to this country's whining elite. The left always complains over this, they don't acknowledge in the least how those on the right are "forced" to pay for abortions, and entitlement programs or if they want creationism taught in schools as well (what about letting those taught decide on this), lets not forget our a good portion of our wonderful teachers pushing the politics of the left in schools, but GOD forbid if the left has to recite the allegiance. As I stated before, IMO, if one gets their panties in a twist over the Allegiance go to a country then you need not worry about it.
    Right, so how is any of that applicable to the situation at hand? I don't see anything valuable to this debate in the least. I do see the regular label-slinging and less-than-subtle insinuations, though. Now, would you actually like to address what I said or continue ranting?
    Promote then, as an object of primary importance, institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened.

  10. #25
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    Re: Bill Requiring Pledge Of Allegiance In School Passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangutan
    Right, so how is any of that applicable to the situation at hand? I don't see anything valuable to this debate in the least. I do see the regular label-slinging and less-than-subtle insinuations, though. Now, would you actually like to address what I said or continue ranting?
    Oh.... So we can only address what bothers you, screw everyone else. It is applicable because people are forced to do things they don't wish too presently, you bitching over something that isn't even passed or rejected yet.

    But, what about those "forced" into paying for things they don't want too?
    What about teaching evolution and creationism, and letting the students decide?
    What about getting rid of teachers who push a political point of view, which is vastly cornered by the left ideal?

    I see none of the above bothers you, so it's unimportant or irrelevant, but pass a Bill that requires you to do something you don't want too and it's different. Oh well, guess your going to have to deal with it if it happen, just as those have to currently with the above.




  11. #26
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    Re: Bill Requiring Pledge Of Allegiance In School Passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangutan
    Yes. You force people to state that they pledge their allegiance to a country ruled by or under the auspices of some "God", notice the capitalisation of the phrase. For those who don't believe in the Christian God ("conservative" Christians came up with the phrase, pushed for its inclusion, and continually push for it), it's ludicrous. Passing it off as "ceremonial deism" is just as asinine since Deism in and of itself is a religion. You ignore the millions of people who are athiests or don't believe in the concept of a "God" in the first place, even though they are religious.



    How is that even close to comparable? This country was not formed on Christianity nor is it ruled by divine mandate. I don't pledge my allegiance to a flag, either. If anything, I'll pledge my allegiance to the concepts upon which this country was built. If people really want a damn idol to worship, pick the Constitution. What the hell is a flag anyway? It's nothing. People who choose to value a country over principles are dangerous.
    If you think the flag is nothing, maybe you better take a course in US History. BD51
    http://forums.pcper.com/trading.php TRADING RULEZ!! BIGDADDY51 I've joined the QUAD CROWD! ASUS M3A78 & a 9850

  12. #27
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    Re: Bill Requiring Pledge Of Allegiance In School Passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew LB
    How do you want to intrepret "liberty and justice for all"??? It can be intrepreted in dozens of ways... including the scenereo I said.

    Heck... 40 years ago.... gay marriage was just as rediculous in the minds of Americans as the scenereo i presented.


    Dude.... and lose the canned responses. Get back to the topic at hand.

    Or do you agree that older men should bang 15 year old girls because its their right?


    ... you child molestor!
    She said she was 18, I swear. BD51
    http://forums.pcper.com/trading.php TRADING RULEZ!! BIGDADDY51 I've joined the QUAD CROWD! ASUS M3A78 & a 9850

  13. #28
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    Re: Bill Requiring Pledge Of Allegiance In School Passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1
    Oh.... So we can only address what bothers you, screw everyone else. It is applicable because people are forced to do things they don't wish too presently, you bitching over something that isn't even passed or rejected yet.

    But, what about those "forced" into paying for things they don't want too?
    What about teaching evolution and creationism, and letting the students decide?
    What about getting rid of teachers who push a political point of view, which is vastly cornered by the left ideal?

    I see none of the above bothers you, so it's unimportant or irrelevant, but pass a Bill that requires you to do something you don't want too and it's different. Oh well, guess your going to have to deal with it if it happen, just as those have to currently with the above.
    There ya go. Now, was that so difficult?

    Anyway, only your first example is close to applicable. Even then it's not accurate. After all, how many people pay taxes? Your money goes to "Support the Troops" and pay for war. My money goes to education, the arts, women's health, and the general good of society; it's really that simple.

    As far as creationism, the scientific community puts no stock in it, hence it should not be taught. If there were evidence for it and scientists considered it even close to valid, it would be another story.

    What do you mean "teachers pushing political points"? I have never encountered such a thing in the primary level (though I have heard of one in town who maintains that evolution and global warming are lies) and scarcely have I ever heard of it. At that level, no one should be "pushing" political agenda. At the collegiate level, I think that in many instances a professor's political views should stay out of the situation. However, there are times and even entire fields where those views are absolutely valid. By that point, however, people are old enough to know how to evaluate all sides and reach their own conclusions. Most primary schoolers are not equipped for such things, as they are still forming those processes.

    I "bitch" because the pledge not only violates the letter of the law with its "Under God" part, but also the spirit of "liberty" upon which our country was founded. You cannot compel respect, but you can compel nationalism. Why must there be a public display of your "patriotism" anyway? Why must people be forced to observe a pledge? What if they disagree with the pledge (for various reasons)? There are no stipulations of "patriotism" in the citizenship requirements, after all. Dissent and free speech are sort of guaranteed by that little thing we call the "First Amendment" in the "Bill of Rights". Why not pledge your allegiance to the Constitution? Why include "Under God"? You teach people that the country is more important than the ideals upon which it was founded with this pledge and this compulsory activity.

    Quote Originally Posted by BIGDADDY51
    If you think the flag is nothing, maybe you better take a course in US History. BD51
    Thank you for that wonderfully insightful and informative post.
    Last edited by Orangutan; 03-16-2005 at 03:32 AM.
    Promote then, as an object of primary importance, institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened.

  14. #29
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    Re: Bill Requiring Pledge Of Allegiance In School Passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangutan
    There ya go. Now, was that so difficult?

    Anyway, only your first example is close to applicable. Even then it's not accurate. After all, how many people pay taxes? Your money goes to "Support the Troops" and pay for war. My money goes to education, the arts, women's health, and the general good of society; it's really that simple.

    As far as creationism, the scientific community puts no stock in it, hence it should not be taught. If there were evidence for it and scientists considered it even close to valid, it would be another story.

    What do you mean "teachers pushing political points"? I have never encountered such a thing in the primary level (though I have heard of one in town who maintains that evolution and global warming are lies) and scarcely have I ever heard of it. At that level, no one should be "pushing" political agenda. At the collegiate level, I think that in many instances a professor's political views should stay out of the situation. However, there are times and even entire fields where those views are absolutely valid. By that point, however, people are old enough to know how to evaluate all sides and reach their own conclusions. Most primary schoolers are not equipped for such things, as they are still forming those processes.

    I "bitch" because the pledge not only violates the letter of the law with its "Under God" part, but also the spirit of "liberty" upon which our country was founded. You cannot compel respect, but you can compel nationalism. Why must there be a public display of your "patriotism" anyway? Why must people be forced to observe a pledge? What if they disagree with the pledge (for various reasons)? There are no stipulations of "patriotism" in the citizenship requirements, after all. Dissent and free speech are sort of guaranteed by that little thing we call the "First Amendment" in the "Bill of Rights". Why not pledge your allegiance to the Constitution? Why include "Under God"? You teach people that the country is more important than the ideals upon which it was founded with this pledge and this compulsory activity.



    Thank you for that wonderfully insightful and informative post.
    No problem, just fly a nazi flag in front of your house, so we will know where you live, After all, it's covered under the first ammendment, freedom of expression.Or maybe even an all white flag, with a red ball in the middle.After all, those symbols should mean nothing also.Nobody EVER forced us to say it in school, if you didn't want to, you were to remain silent ,while others did. In this politically correct time of BS, I hope it passes, and the words UNDER GOD stay in it. If you don't believe, don't participate, just don't try to stop anyone who cares to. I am one AMERICAN, who is sick and tired of FOREIGNERS, who think they can come here, and try to change anything they so desire.BD51
    http://forums.pcper.com/trading.php TRADING RULEZ!! BIGDADDY51 I've joined the QUAD CROWD! ASUS M3A78 & a 9850

  15. #30
    Joined
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    Re: Bill Requiring Pledge Of Allegiance In School Passes

    Really? So, on which reservation do you live?
    What the genteel demand is something of themselves. What the vulgar demand is something of others.
    The true church is one's own heart.
    It has been my experience that those who proclaim the world is going to hell in a handbasket are the same ones who are leading the way there with their grip fixed firmly on the handle.
    Why can't you find god? Everyone knows he lives in a little black box.
    A carp who deals in red herrings is a traitor to his species.


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