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  1. #46
    Joined
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Long Beach CA
    Posts
    2,134

    Re: Anti-war front protests out in front of Walter Reed.

    If I were to attend a public anti-war protest (not likely) I personally would not choose to do it in front of a military hospital. The protesters do have the right to be there however. I do agree that it shows questionable taste to hold protests there but as far as I can see they are protesting the White House's actions by bringing attention to the needlessly dead and wounded. Many people try to play the angle of "If you don't support the war, you hate the troops" or something similar. I personally think that most of the people who protest this war have the safety of the troops every bit as much at heart as most of the people who support this war.

    In Vietnam we had people being drafted against their will to do battle in a faraway land for questionable reasons. After going through horrors and deaths many came home to be spat upon and called baby killers, etc. Unlike Vietnam, this is an all volunteer military sent to do battle in a faraway land for questionable reasons. After going through horrors and deaths they didn't come home to be spat upon and called baby killers, etc. This is a big difference.

    It seems to me that the people began the undertaking in Iraq, and the people who support it, now use the wounded and dead as a justification to continue the military actions in Iraq. Not only are those men and women put in a position to be killed or maimed, the injured and deceased are also used as a reason to have more of our soldiers hurt. Not a good viscious cycle for a nation to be in.

    The administration that doesn't appear to care much about whether our brave young men get hurt or killed in carrying out its designs has no problem pointing fingers at people who do appear to care about the soldiers, and condemning them for possibly hurting the soldier's feelings. Does anyone think that the soldiers aren't mentally or emotionally tough enough to face the idea of someone questioning their chain of command's choices? I have no doubt that they are.

    The soldiers that have served in either place have given honorable service whether they have been hurt or not. These heroes have been through Hell in combat and personally I think they are strong enough to handle the idea of people disagreeing with why they were sent to fight.
    Black CoolCases D8000 2 x 120mm fans, RS480M2-IL, Athlon 64 3000+ Venice, 2 x 512 OCZ PC3500, 400W RaidMax PSU w/ 120mm fan. CPU, PSU, & case fans on black Sunbeam rheobus w/ LEDs removed.

  2. #47
    Joined
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    village of idiots
    Posts
    2,315

    Re: Anti-war front protests out in front of Walter Reed.

    i think it was decide a while back, what was and wasn't in bad taste in the political arena. it's all about winning, whatever the cost.

    Campaigns walk tightrope remembering 9/11

    It is also about politics.

    The terrorist attacks and the national security discussion they spawned are playing out in campaign ads and stump speeches. In doing so, candidates and political groups have moved into uncharted waters as they struggle to define what is appropriate, what is exploitative and what responsibility they bear when resurrecting – arguably for their advantage – a bloody and hideous day in the country's history.

    "Politicians are asking, 'How can we use (Sept. 11) to our benefit, without it hurting us?' " said Glenn Hansen, director of the Political Communications Center at the University of Oklahoma. "If this were my daughter who was killed, I'd be saying it was unethical, and that you've crossed the line. But as somebody who studies freedom of speech, I'm not sure we should be drawing lines and telling candidates this is what can and cannot be used."

    For one thing, the Republican National Convention, which begins Aug. 30 and ends Sept. 2, was scheduled later in the year than any other U.S. political convention. Some believe the timing was an effort to tie the event to the third anniversary of the terrorist attacks.

    Perhaps the most obvious use of Sept. 11 images for campaign purposes came in March, when the Bush camp aired a TV ad that said America is safer and stronger than it was three years ago, and showed two firefighters pulling a flag-draped coffin from the World Trade Center debris.
    In June, a pro-GOP group called Progress for America Voter Fund aired an ad showing President Bush shaking hands with firefighters amid the wreckage in New York. The ad asked: "Could John Kerry have shown this leadership?"

    Both ads infuriated some victims' relatives and firefighters groups.


    we win!!! four more years



    bb

  3. #48
    Joined
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Corruptfornia
    Posts
    3,785

    Re: Anti-war front protests out in front of Walter Reed.

    Quote Originally Posted by tucker
    Talking about the wounded is a very good thing, protesting in front of hospitals is retarded and tasteless.
    Da*n straight Tucker ! And from one VN ERA Vet to
    another, thanks for your service !!

  4. #49
    Joined
    May 2002
    Location
    Twain Harte, CA
    Posts
    20,453

    Re: Anti-war front protests out in front of Walter Reed.

    Quote Originally Posted by uz2bsum1LL's
    we have nowhere to go. now do we?
    That's all you had to say.

  5. #50
    Joined
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    Kern River Valley, CA
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    21,597

    Re: Anti-war front protests out in front of Walter Reed.

    Quote Originally Posted by uz2bsum1LL's
    I'm not being obtuse. I think the message isn't the same as you portray and I don't put much creedence to this news report of cns.

    I addressed Tucker's post again in further detail.

    Letters and coverage has not improved the bennies of the wounded.

    We don't even talk about the numbers around here (14,000).

    Sheehan is a different thread. I have not expressed an opinion on that one.

    But I can read signs. I think you guys are over reacting to poor reporting and I do not agree with the analogy of a vet's feeling to a similar situation during the vietnam war to the signs being portrayed here. They are most different.

    And I think the insult bug is pretty rampant here.
    Ok enough is enough…

    When I made that post like I said I was concerned the topic would turn to what I experienced. I didn’t want to take the spotlight away from the guys we should be talking about the 14,000 you have mentioned repeatedly in your posts. It was just a reference to how I felt when I experienced the same type of thing in 1968. I don’t know how much soldiers have changed from 1968-69 until 28Aug2005 but I do suspect that if there is a change it’s minimal. We had TVs’ but obviously no computers in those days, we did watch TV and yes we did watch all the news about the war protests. There were some that agreed with the war protesters but the vast majority despised them.

    Ok lets get this on topic starting with you, please do tell me exactly what you know about the 14,000 soldiers that have been wounded. How many have you talked to, how many interviews have seen on TV where they ask a wounded soldier how he feels about war-protests and protestors? Have you seen interviews with inpatients at Walter Reed, Bethesda or any other Military hospital?

    In the first year or so of the war I saw many interviews of inpatients at Bethesda and Walter Reed. The interviews and questions were mainly how you doing, how and where were you injured, how’s you recovery coming along? Mostly peaches and cream type of stuff.

    When the media found out most of these soldiers were not bitter and their attitude was generally upbeat they quit visiting hospitals and quit talking to the wounded. How do you explain that?

    I just did a google and a yahoo and these are the best links I could come up with. There was nothing from the major media, newspapers or most cable that I could find where they actually talked to a wounded soldier at Walter Reed and asked him his opinion on the demonstrations in front of the hospital. Again I wonder why?

    'Code Pink' protestors target Walter Reed Medical Center

    Code Pink Has No Shame

    Great Attitude Carries Double Amputee Through Recovery

    Kevin Pannell, who was recently treated at Walter Reed and had both legs amputated after an ambush grenade attack near Baghdad in 2004, considers the presence of the anti-war protesters in front of the hospital "distasteful."

    When he was a patient at the hospital, Pannell said he initially tried to ignore the anti-war activists camped out in front of Walter Reed, until witnessing something that enraged him.

    "We went by there one day and I drove by and [the anti-war protesters] had a bunch of flag-draped coffins laid out on the sidewalk. That, I thought, was probably the most distasteful thing I had ever seen. Ever," Pannell, a member of the Army's First Cavalry Division, told Cybercast News Service.

    "You know that 95 percent of the guys in the hospital bed lost guys whenever they got hurt and survivors' guilt is the worst thing you can deal with," Pannell said, adding that other veterans recovering from wounds at Walter Reed share his resentment for the anti-war protesters.

    "We don't like them and we don't like the fact that they can hang their signs and stuff on the fence at Walter Reed," he said. "[The wounded veterans] are there to recuperate. Once they get out in the real world, then they can start seeing that stuff (anti-war protests). I mean Walter Reed is a sheltered environment and it needs to stay that way."
    If you can do better please do because I sure as hell would like to hear what the soldiers in Walter Reed think.

    All I ••••••• hear about is what protesters on both sides do and what they think and how they try to justify unjustifiable ••••••••. Why in hell doesn’t the media go to the horses mouth and see what soldiers really think?

    Why don’t you?

    I know this retired 1st Sergeant that lives in Oceanside, CA and twice or three times a year I drive 350 miles to stay at his home and visit for 2 or 3 days. He lives 5 miles from the main gate at Camp Pendelton. Every time I visit we make it a point to go to the Base Hospital at Camp Pendelton and see if there are any inpatient soldiers from the war in Iraq. Generally there is at least one or 2. We take them goodies and a smiling understanding face and we sit and talk. These kids are generally one’s that have finished their course at Walter Reed or Bethesda and are at Pendelton for minor surgery and therapy, not amputees. They are usually just weeks from going home or returning to their units. But they are upbeat and anxious to get to where they’re heading. I haven’t seen one that is bitter or that criticizes Bush or anybody else for their injuries. If what they say is any indication they feel the same way about war protesters that I did 37 years ago.

    If you really want to talk about the 14,000 wounded soldiers with any meaning get away from Walter Reed and start a new thread. But let’s try to offer some truth that can be verified. Opinions are great but opinions are opinions and nothing more. If you want to talk financing and money, talk financing and money.

    Geezzz….Rant over…
    Last edited by tucker; 08-28-2005 at 06:44 PM. Reason: spelling

  6. #51
    Joined
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Oregon
    Age
    40
    Posts
    6,498

    Re: Anti-war front protests out in front of Walter Reed.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9102443/

    These people belong belong in the same category as the Walter Reed folks....shows that extremism is definitely rampant on both sides of the compass

  7. #52
    Joined
    May 2002
    Location
    Twain Harte, CA
    Posts
    20,453

    Re: Anti-war front protests out in front of Walter Reed.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragon24
    These people belong belong in the same category as the Walter Reed folks....shows that extremism is definitely rampant on both sides of the compass
    Aye that... funerals are probably worse than hospitals... but one thing sure, there's no shortage of crack-pot idiots.

  8. #53
    Joined
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Plainfield, IL
    Posts
    5,177

    Re: Anti-war front protests out in front of Walter Reed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchcedar
    Quote Originally Posted by uz2bsum1LL's
    we have nowhere to go. now do we?
    That's all you had to say.
    Well, you both had some excellent and thoughtfull points. If you feel you that in the future you can express them within the bounds of the AMDMB and TRL rules and guidelines, i'd love to see you both revisit this topic.

    I've banished all posts I interpret to violate the above rules and guidelines, mainly because it takes too much time to edit the salient points from the dross, and i'm having a killer allergy attack right now. If either of you disagree and wish the posts to remain, please PM me and I will go over every such post thoroughly with my copies of the AMDMB rules, TRL guidelines, and PCPerspective infraction guidelines in hand.

  9. #54
    Joined
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    43

    Re: Anti-war front protests out in front of Walter Reed.

    Quote Originally Posted by tucker
    Ok enough is enough…

    When I made that post like I said I was concerned the topic would turn to what I experienced. I didn’t want to take the spotlight away from the guys we should be talking about the 14,000 you have mentioned repeatedly in your posts. It was just a reference to how I felt when I experienced the same type of thing in 1968. I don’t know how much soldiers have changed from 1968-69 until 28Aug2005 but I do suspect that if there is a change it’s minimal. We had TVs’ but obviously no computers in those days, we did watch TV and yes we did watch all the news about the war protests. There were some that agreed with the war protesters but the vast majority despised them.

    Ok lets get this on topic starting with you, please do tell me exactly what you know about the 14,000 soldiers that have been wounded. How many have you talked to, how many interviews have seen on TV where they ask a wounded soldier how he feels about war-protests and protestors? Have you seen interviews with inpatients at Walter Reed, Bethesda or any other Military hospital?

    In the first year or so of the war I saw many interviews of inpatients at Bethesda and Walter Reed. The interviews and questions were mainly how you doing, how and where were you injured, how’s you recovery coming along? Mostly peaches and cream type of stuff.

    When the media found out most of these soldiers were not bitter and their attitude was generally upbeat they quit visiting hospitals and quit talking to the wounded. How do you explain that?

    I just did a google and a yahoo and these are the best links I could come up with. There was nothing from the major media, newspapers or most cable that I could find where they actually talked to a wounded soldier at Walter Reed and asked him his opinion on the demonstrations in front of the hospital. Again I wonder why?

    'Code Pink' protestors target Walter Reed Medical Center

    Code Pink Has No Shame

    Great Attitude Carries Double Amputee Through Recovery



    If you can do better please do because I sure as hell would like to hear what the soldiers in Walter Reed think.

    All I ••••••• hear about is what protesters on both sides do and what they think and how they try to justify unjustifiable ••••••••. Why in hell doesn’t the media go to the horses mouth and see what soldiers really think?

    Why don’t you?

    I know this retired 1st Sergeant that lives in Oceanside, CA and twice or three times a year I drive 350 miles to stay at his home and visit for 2 or 3 days. He lives 5 miles from the main gate at Camp Pendelton. Every time I visit we make it a point to go to the Base Hospital at Camp Pendelton and see if there are any inpatient soldiers from the war in Iraq. Generally there is at least one or 2. We take them goodies and a smiling understanding face and we sit and talk. These kids are generally one’s that have finished their course at Walter Reed or Bethesda and are at Pendelton for minor surgery and therapy, not amputees. They are usually just weeks from going home or returning to their units. But they are upbeat and anxious to get to where they’re heading. I haven’t seen one that is bitter or that criticizes Bush or anybody else for their injuries. If what they say is any indication they feel the same way about war protesters that I did 37 years ago.

    If you really want to talk about the 14,000 wounded soldiers with any meaning get away from Walter Reed and start a new thread. But let’s try to offer some truth that can be verified. Opinions are great but opinions are opinions and nothing more. If you want to talk financing and money, talk financing and money.

    Geezzz….Rant over…
    Thank you for that thoughtful post. I understand all your points and they are very good. Even the rant.

    The problem with politics is there is no individual. And people know it. To be heard, you have to band. I'm sure the guys you talk to are being polite to an ex-vet from the VietNam era, still figuring things out for themselves, sincere, or all of the above.

    I believe this is all about the 14,000 wounded. I don't believe we have to start a new thread on finance just because the signs point out bennies. I think it's all related. That was my earlier point, now deleted. There were many views being presented at Walter Reid. I saw the signs in the picture and all were supportive of the vets. The use of the coffin was distasteful, but as you saw in your search, the news accounting was limited for months. Sometimes distasteful is needed to get the attention of the press. Kerry's statement to Congress in the 70s talks about this fact and I guess things haven't changed.

    So I'd rather be the optimist and say that any news coverage is good.

    The only way we can image what the current groups of vets feel is by looking at the range of input and decide on how to filter its importance.

    Tucker, the opinions and needs of the current vets, like in all aspects of life, are all over the place. Take your pick. This is not meant to be a total listing. I'll let Andrew post the pro war vet links cause I didn't find them.
    Against/negative
    http://www.vaiw.org/vet/index.php
    http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0208/p02s01-ussc.html
    http://www.veteransforpeace.org/
    http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/nov2004/vet-n11.shtml
    http://www.dmregister.com/apps/pbcs....70/1001&lead=1
    http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1026-02.htm
    http://www.americanprogress.org/site...J8OVF&b=883467
    http://www.boston.com/news/globe/edi...tiwar_veteran/

    In politics (to go with your WSJ oped)
    http://www.mydd.com/story/2005/8/15/143331/124


    Pannell seems like a neat guy, he's the one source noted in the original CNS story and seems to be no stranger to the press (the one source reporting of CNS is shoddy and directive by nature.),
    Pannell, a member of the Army's First Cavalry Division, told Cybercast News Service.
    http://www.cnsnews.com/specialreports.asp
    http://www.dcmilitary.com/navy/journ...s/35487-1.html
    http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...e/1303041.html

    Supportive to and by vets
    http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org...Info_Sheet.htm
    http://www.iraqwarveterans.org

    Pro war vets
    can't find in first three pages of google search

    opinions (as always go to a forums to see the best opinions)
    http://groups.msn.com/IraqWarVeterans/iraqwarvets.msnw



    what this is really about/has become (If you didn't see my earlier link, now deleted, CNS issued a press release before they published the story that is linked in the first post. lol, a press release for the news.)
    http://andisworld.typepad.com/welcom...world/2005/08/

    I am sorry that your post that I feel was touching and profound became a central point to an off topic issue. I hope that you will believe my sincerity in seeing your side and respecting your opinion. However, with all due respect, your eyes are filtered through those terrible times of disrespect to vets. The CNS gonzo account was meant to recreate that anger from VietNam even though it wasn't up to snuff.

    Perhaps its because I don't want to see another polarizing time like vietnam that I'd rather offer a little more forgiving and balanced view of the situation.

    Is Pannell correct that Walter Reid should be off limits as he was quoted in CNS and as such the display of caskets are distasteful and should be banned? I think once again this is a bite off the nose to spite the face situation. If you ban the guys you don't like, you wind up banning the guys you do. Those placards that call for better bennies and keeping Walter Reid open are ones I want to keep in spite of a few coffins dissing Bush. For such is America.

    I lived through it once during VietNam and hated the polarization done to our country. I refuse to be silently part of it again and don't have the time to waste on being polarizing today.


    OT closure
    Sorry for the trouble mostholycerebus. I don't think anything I said on topic merits any more of your time.

    Congratulations Dutch on making me the foo and I sadly accept and understand all of what you said.

    I'd say goodbye, but I already said it once before didn't I?

  10. #55
    Joined
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Kern River Valley, CA
    Age
    71
    Posts
    21,597

    Re: Anti-war front protests out in front of Walter Reed.

    Quote Originally Posted by uz2bsum1LL's
    Thank you for that thoughtful post. I understand all your points and they are very good. Even the rant.

    The problem with politics is there is no individual. And people know it. To be heard, you have to band. I'm sure the guys you talk to are being polite to an ex-vet from the VietNam era, still figuring things out for themselves, sincere, or all of the above.

    I believe this is all about the 14,000 wounded. I don't believe we have to start a new thread on finance just because the signs point out bennies. I think it's all related. That was my earlier point, now deleted. There were many views being presented at Walter Reid. I saw the signs in the picture and all were supportive of the vets. The use of the coffin was distasteful, but as you saw in your search, the news accounting was limited for months. Sometimes distasteful is needed to get the attention of the press. Kerry's statement to Congress in the 70s talks about this fact and I guess things haven't changed.

    So I'd rather be the optimist and say that any news coverage is good.

    The only way we can image what the current groups of vets feel is by looking at the range of input and decide on how to filter its importance.

    Tucker, the opinions and needs of the current vets, like in all aspects of life, are all over the place. Take your pick. This is not meant to be a total listing. I'll let Andrew post the pro war vet links cause I didn't find them.
    Against/negative
    http://www.vaiw.org/vet/index.php
    http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0208/p02s01-ussc.html
    http://www.veteransforpeace.org/
    http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/nov2004/vet-n11.shtml
    http://www.dmregister.com/apps/pbcs....70/1001&lead=1
    http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1026-02.htm
    http://www.americanprogress.org/site...J8OVF&b=883467
    http://www.boston.com/news/globe/edi...tiwar_veteran/

    In politics (to go with your WSJ oped)
    http://www.mydd.com/story/2005/8/15/143331/124


    Pannell seems like a neat guy, he's the one source noted in the original CNS story and seems to be no stranger to the press (the one source reporting of CNS is shoddy and directive by nature.),
    Pannell, a member of the Army's First Cavalry Division, told Cybercast News Service.
    http://www.cnsnews.com/specialreports.asp
    http://www.dcmilitary.com/navy/journ...s/35487-1.html
    http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...e/1303041.html

    Supportive to and by vets
    http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org...Info_Sheet.htm
    http://www.iraqwarveterans.org

    Pro war vets
    can't find in first three pages of google search

    opinions (as always go to a forums to see the best opinions)
    http://groups.msn.com/IraqWarVeterans/iraqwarvets.msnw



    what this is really about/has become (If you didn't see my earlier link, now deleted, CNS issued a press release before they published the story that is linked in the first post. lol, a press release for the news.)
    http://andisworld.typepad.com/welcom...world/2005/08/

    I am sorry that your post that I feel was touching and profound became a central point to an off topic issue. I hope that you will believe my sincerity in seeing your side and respecting your opinion. However, with all due respect, your eyes are filtered through those terrible times of disrespect to vets. The CNS gonzo account was meant to recreate that anger from VietNam even though it wasn't up to snuff.

    Perhaps its because I don't want to see another polarizing time like vietnam that I'd rather offer a little more forgiving and balanced view of the situation.

    Is Pannell correct that Walter Reid should be off limits as he was quoted in CNS and as such the display of caskets are distasteful and should be banned? I think once again this is a bite off the nose to spite the face situation. If you ban the guys you don't like, you wind up banning the guys you do. Those placards that call for better bennies and keeping Walter Reid open are ones I want to keep in spite of a few coffins dissing Bush. For such is America.

    I lived through it once during VietNam and hated the polarization done to our country. I refuse to be silently part of it again and don't have the time to waste on being polarizing today.


    OT closure
    Sorry for the trouble mostholycerebus. I don't think anything I said on topic merits any more of your time.

    Congratulations Dutch on making me the foo and I sadly accept and understand all of what you said.

    I'd say goodbye, but I already said it once before didn't I?
    Like the man said I have a sinus headache and I don’t feel like cherry-picking today…

    Do you think I don’t worry about veteran’s benefits? Well I do

    Do you think I don’t care about homeless veterans? Well I do

    Do you think I don’t worry about the 10% of veterans (Vietnam, Gulf War, Korean War, WWII) that haven’t and probably never will adjust to society and civilian life? Well I do?

    I even worry about the 90% that made a successful transition and fill or have filled every kind of position and job from president of the USA to Corporate CEO’s and gas station attendants.

    If you are worried about the care our wounded are now receiving rest assured they are getting the best medical and psychological care the world has ever seen from battlefield hospitals, to Ramstien AFB, to Bethesda and Walter Reed.

    Do you think I don’t worry about polarization? Well I do

    In case you haven’t noticed it’s been in full swing for the last year or more. It’s starting to gather steam in Crawford in front of Walter Reed and 1000 different places. You are a little late to stop it my friend, the only hope is that the train derails.

    If you care about veteran’s benefits this is where it all begins.

    The White House

    House Committee On Veterans Affairs

    Senate Committee On Veterans Affairs

    Edit: Could you also read these and explain to me what they mean, I had a congressman that told me to read these when I sent a letter of complaint to him:

    TITLE 38--VETERANS' BENEFITS

    TITLE 38--APPENDIX

    Not here Walter Reed Army Medical Center.

    Walter Reed + protests = polarization.

    Like I said start another thread and I’ll likely be 100% with you…
    Last edited by tucker; 08-29-2005 at 02:37 PM.

  11. #56
    Joined
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    1

    Re: Anti-war front protests out in front of Walter Reed.

    Bye, bye.
    Last edited by Dutchcedar; 06-18-2019 at 12:46 PM.

  12. #57
    Joined
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Kern River Valley, CA
    Age
    71
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    21,597

    Re: Anti-war front protests out in front of Walter Reed.

    Hey Dutch I think somebody is using the TLR for advertising ^^^ ....
    Thank A Democrat... Vote DNC

    AOC... New Leader DNC ....

  13. #58
    Joined
    May 2002
    Location
    Twain Harte, CA
    Posts
    20,453

    Re: Anti-war front protests out in front of Walter Reed.

    Quote Originally Posted by tucker View Post
    Hey Dutch I think somebody is using the TLR for advertising ^^^ ....
    Oh goody, I get to put on my mood raider's hat. otoc loves it when I get out the banning hat.

  14. #59
    Joined
    Sep 2003
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    Kern River Valley, CA
    Age
    71
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    21,597

    Re: Anti-war front protests out in front of Walter Reed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchcedar View Post
    Oh goody, I get to put on my mood raider's hat. otoc loves it when I get out the banning hat.
    Thank A Democrat... Vote DNC

    AOC... New Leader DNC ....

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