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Thread: Quagmire: Paris

  1. #16
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    Re: Quagmire: Paris

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter
    Being intentionally obtuse today? OK, I can play along.
    He wasn't being obtuse. He was asking a question. Your answer was obtuse.

    So tell me, do you only think Muslims plan things. Do you still think extremists from any belief are an indication of the whole?



    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter
    Because you are wrong.
    Cute. But you said that before. And the question asked in return was: why.

    Why is he wrong?



    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter
    I already have.
    No you haven't. You said "People starting to see what the press and far left refuse to see or print." See what? That was the question. See what you read on the right wing blogs?

    I don't think people are starting to see that. I think you are seeing something. But what "it" is could be considered rather extreme. Just like some extremists you continually point out as an indicator of an entire religion.

  2. #17
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    Re: Quagmire: Paris

    Quote Originally Posted by otoc
    He wasn't being obtuse. He was asking a question. Your answer was obtuse.

    So tell me, do you only think Muslims plan things. Do you still think extremists from any belief are an indication of the whole?




    Cute. But you said that before. And the question asked in return was: why.

    Why is he wrong?





    No you haven't. You said "People starting to see what the press and far left refuse to see or print." See what? That was the question. See what you read on the right wing blogs?

    I don't think people are starting to see that. I think you are seeing something. But what "it" is could be considered rather extreme. Just like some extremists you continually point out as an indicator of an entire religion.

    1) BS. I made the point that the Muslim extremists planned these riots in advance. The best retort is reduced to "so only Muslims plan things". It amazes me stupid people get when it suits their needs.

    2) He asks the question: do I think "thousands of sites and millions of adherents denigrating Islam and Muslims improves the situation?" And I respond that there would probably be a lot less sites if not for the thousands of terrorist attacks perpetrated in the name of Islam annually. You decide for yourself which is the stronger argument. Radical Islam is the problem here, not the sites reporting their heinous behavior.

    3) What are people seeing now? Exactly what you see going on in Paris. The extremists have moved in, set up shop and are now launching a campaign against the government from their own soil. France tried to ignore this issue for some time, now they are paying the price publicly.

    That Orang tries to play this of as endemic of some issue that is anything but a problem with Islam and Muslims is laughable. He then tries to associate this Muslim radical flareup with the way Republicans feel about immigrants. Nice touch but it falls somewhat short of reality. Then to top off the spin he tosses in some rant about Fascists and xenophobia. As I said before, everything BUT an admission or acknowledgement that radical Muslims are the issue at hand.

    So to surmise. Smoke, mirrors, debates over whether or nor "Muslims plan", Fascists and xenophobia are not the issue here. Radical Muslims are. My prediction in my initial post is all but coming true.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  3. #18
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    Re: Quagmire: Paris

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter
    1) BS. I made the point that the Muslim extremists planned these riots in advance. The best retort is reduced to "so only Muslims plan things". It amazes me stupid people get when it suits their needs.

    2) He asks the question: do I think "thousands of sites and millions of adherents denigrating Islam and Muslims improves the situation?" And I respond that there would probably be a lot less sites if not for the thousands of terrorist attacks perpetrated in the name of Islam annually. You decide for yourself which is the stronger argument. Radical Islam is the problem here, not the sites reporting their heinous behavior.

    3) What are people seeing now? Exactly what you see going on in Paris. The extremists have moved in, set up shop and are now launching a campaign against the government from their own soil. France tried to ignore this issue for some time, now they are paying the price publicly.

    That Orang tries to play this of as endemic of some issue that is anything but a problem with Islam and Muslims is laughable. He then tries to associate this Muslim radical flareup with the way Republicans feel about immigrants. Nice touch but it falls somewhat short of reality. Then to top off the spin he tosses in some rant about Fascists and xenophobia. As I said before, everything BUT an admission or acknowledgement that radical Muslims are the issue at hand.

    So to surmise. Smoke, mirrors, debates over whether or nor "Muslims plan", Fascists and xenophobia are not the issue here. Radical Muslims are. My prediction in my initial post is all but coming true.
    BS: right. You made one comment based on one official's statement taken out of context in the heat of the moment that the riots didn't begin as a spontaneous event from the youths being electrocuted and said "Because from most reports the riots were pre planned for weeks."

    Looking at all the links of information about the situation which can be found at this page,
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4399748.stm

    Yup, it looks like its a typical situation of a group of people who are unemployed, feeling like second class citizens with a sense that there is no hope. This isn't radical muslims, this isn't a sign of your christian blogger's interpretation of Islam as "I believe that the nature of Islam itself is violent. One of the most stunning things I ever heard was George Bush’s contention that Islam is a “religion of peace.”

    The fact that you take these riots and then compare them to terrorists acts because they occur by people of similar religions says to me your prediction in the first post was one that was destined to be self-fulfilled.

    And you are amazed at how "stupid people get when it suits their needs."?

    Perhaps that's why you don't see Orang's points that there is no evidence this was a planned terrorist event, or that your thousands of pin-head sites do not neutralize terrorism: they incite it by their ignorance in their belief that "the nature of Islam itself is violent".

    Yup. You predicted it in the first post and for that I'll thank you for saving me the effort to have to say it.

  4. #19
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    Re: Quagmire: Paris

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangutan
    It amuses me how many Republicans decry France's "liberalism" when the country is run by conservatives. I guess you really can't expect all that much, though..
    You must be confusing France's strong sense of Nationalism with Conservatism. I can see how you might try to twist that to suit the argument...

    The French 35 hour work week is a result of pure, unmitigated Socialism.
    The French enjoy 11 national holidays and 5 weeks of paid vacations annually.
    Nothing conservative about *that*.
    FWIW Charles DeGaull was the last conservative to hold power in France.

    Comprendez-vous??
    -TMack

    "Forgive everyone for everything"

  5. #20
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    Re: Quagmire: Paris

    Quote Originally Posted by otoc
    BS: right. You made one comment based on one official's statement taken out of context in the heat of the moment that the riots didn't begin as a spontaneous event from the youths being electrocuted and said "Because from most reports the riots were pre planned for weeks."

    Looking at all the links of information about the situation which can be found at this page,
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4399748.stm

    Yup, it looks like its a typical situation of a group of people who are unemployed, feeling like second class citizens with a sense that there is no hope. This isn't radical muslims, this isn't a sign of your christian blogger's interpretation of Islam as "I believe that the nature of Islam itself is violent. One of the most stunning things I ever heard was George Bush’s contention that Islam is a “religion of peace.”

    The fact that you take these riots and then compare them to terrorists acts because they occur by people of similar religions says to me your prediction in the first post was one that was destined to be self-fulfilled.

    And you are amazed at how "stupid people get when it suits their needs."?

    Perhaps that's why you don't see Orang's points that there is no evidence this was a planned terrorist event, or that your thousands of pin-head sites do not neutralize terrorism: they incite it by their ignorance in their belief that "the nature of Islam itself is violent".

    Yup. You predicted it in the first post and for that I'll thank you for saving me the effort to have to say it.

    Taken out of context?? Howso? It does not fit your story? Lets see the exact quote again:
    Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy, who earlier met the dead teenagers' families, said the violence was "not spontaneous" but rather "well organised".

    He said the government would not allow "troublemakers, a bunch of hoodlums, think they can do whatever they want".
    Did not see in there where it is "heat of the moment". Adding more to the story on your own??

    Looking at all the information in the link you provide you will(or not) see one glaring omission, the fact these are Muslims. As to your link about poor, unemployed Blah, blah, blah. its just more of the same. How about the riots in Denmark now too?? Were they also sparked by the two boys deaths or because they were poor? Be sure to NOT see the boldface part where they say outright they planned the riots for three weeks in advance, it does not fit too nicely into your spin.

    Riots in Denmark
    translation here

    Not that well covered is a very similar series of riots, also running for four days, in Århus, Denmark. Nothing of it has penetrated to the english-language sections of Danish media, so the following is my translation of a piece in daily Jyllands-Posten:

    Rosenhøj Mall has several nights in a row been the scene of the worst riots in Århus for years. "This area belongs to us", the youths proclaim. Sunday evening saw a new arson attack.

    Their words sound like a clear declaration of war on the Danish society. Police must stay out. The area belongs to immigrants.

    Four youths sit on the wall in Rosenhøj Mall sunday afternoon, calling themselves spokesmen for the groups, that three nights in a row have ravaged and tried to burn down the restaurant and other stores.

    Around the parking lot, cars with youngsters from the immigrant community are swarming, and many are walking around, greeting each others with a sense of victory after the worst riots in Århus in years.

    Every night 30-40 youts took part, especially immigrants.

    Only two were arrested.

    That was a victory.

    "We knew, you would be coming. We are spokesmen", said a young man with a black knitted hood on his head, when JP (Jyllands-Posten - Henrik) visited Rosenhøj Mall sunday. He was angry. Very angry. Behind him the pub Hot Shot has scars after the attacks with cobble stones, and the stores along the parking lot besides the small mall have their windows covered with adhesive tape in a spiderweb pattern.

    Four hours after the short meeting, Falck (Danish privat emergency service - Henrik) sent a group of fire engines under police escort to the nursery Kjærslund on Søndervangs Allé, right across the street from Rosenhøj Mall.

    Gasoline through the window

    A window had been shattered at the back of the house, and the fire had been blazing, apparently because of gasoline poured onto the floor, then lit.

    Falck stopped on Viby Square, a couple kilometers from the site of the arson attack, waiting for the police to turn up so they could be escorted to the nursery. Two nights earlier, other Falck-employees were threatened, when they were covering up broken shop-windows.

    Cobblestones had smashed the shop-windows from one end of the mall to the other. The police wrote in their report saturday night, that the youths had their stones with them in bags, when they came to Rosenhøj.

    Cobblestones against bakery.

    Saturday morning a 16-year-old somali boy was incarcerated, accused of aggravated assault, as he friday evening threw a cobblestone through a window in the bakery. The stone passed closely by baker Børge Svaløs face. ..

    He calls himself 100 percent Palestinian, born in a refugee camp in Lebanon 19 years ago, and now out of work in Denmark.

    "The police has to stay away. This is our area. We decide what goes down here".

    And then the bit with the drawings of the prophet Muhammed comes around:

    We are tired of what we see happening with our prophet. We are tired of Jyllands-Posten. I know it isnt you, but we wont accept what Jyllands-Posten has done to the prophet", he says aggressively, and the others nod approvingly.

    Planned for three weeks

    To of them are Turks, and it is the first time, that Turks and Palestinians act together, the 19-year-old says.

    "We have planned this for three weeks. That is why only two were arrested saturday nigh. The police will cordon off it all. But we know the ways out"
    , he claims, and then disappears, munching on a piece of pizza from Fun Pizza.

    The pizzerias windows are also held together by adhesive tape after the attacks with cobblestones.

    Of course, it isnt of the size the Paris riots have, but then France is 10 times larger than Denmark, population-wise, and has 25 times more moslems.

    Its not just Paris.


    UPDATE:

    It has been brought to my attention, that "mall" would be a bad translation in the above article. Please substitute with "shopping centre" when you read the post.
    Still going to bury your collective heads in the sand and stick to the " they riot because they are poor" or "this was triggered by the two deaths"mantra?? This is a coordinated event brought on by Muslim extremists. Why you are so protective of these extremists and their activities is really beyond me.
    Last edited by mostholycerebus; 11-03-2005 at 09:41 PM.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  6. #21
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    Re: Quagmire: Paris

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter

    Did not see in there where it is "heat of the moment". Adding more to the story on your own??

    Looking at all the information in the link you provide you will(or not) see one glaring omission, the fact these are Muslims. As to your link about poor, unemployed Blah, blah, blah. its just more of the same. How about the riots in Denmark now too?? Were they also sparked by the two boys deaths or because they were poor? Be sure to NOT see the boldface part where they say outright they planned the riots for three weeks in advance, it does not fit too nicely into your spin.
    Your version is also incorrect. The riots did not occur the first day of the police crackdown, did they? Why not start then? You can plan something and have it happen a few hours later, can you not? Such as, I plan on playing some Battlefield 2 after I finish posting.

    Once again, Scooter, you ought to pay attention to history. I don't know how to make it clearer: immigrant populations often find themselves in conflict with the countries in which they come to exist. The fact that these people are Muslim may or may not have something to do with the riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by TMack409


    You must be confusing France's strong sense of Nationalism with Conservatism. I can see how you might try to twist that to suit the argument...

    The French 35 hour work week is a result of pure, unmitigated Socialism.
    The French enjoy 11 national holidays and 5 weeks of paid vacations annually.
    Nothing conservative about *that*.
    FWIW Charles DeGaull was the last conservative to hold power in France.

    Comprendez-vous??
    Oh, for the love of...

    Educate yourself:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaques_Chirac
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_France

    Since then, the government alternated between a left-wing coalition (composed of the French Socialist Party, the French Communist Party and more recently Les Verts, the Greens) and a right-wing coalition (composed of Jacques Chirac's Rally for the Republic, later replaced by the Union for a Popular Movement, and the Union for French Democracy).
    And, do you really want to count up the number of national holidays we have in the United States?
    Last edited by mostholycerebus; 11-04-2005 at 01:25 AM.

  7. #22
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    Re: Quagmire: Paris

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangutan
    Your version is also incorrect. The riots did not occur the first day of the police crackdown, did they? Why not start then? You can plan something and have it happen a few hours later, can you not? Such as, I plan on playing some Battlefield 2 after I finish posting.

    Once again, Scooter, you ought to pay attention to history. I don't know how to make it clearer: immigrant populations often find themselves in conflict with the countries in which they come to exist. The fact that these people are Muslim may or may not have something to do with the riots. You jump the gun and assign blame, confusing cause and effect so that you can bolster your own racism. It's nothing new, but it is tiring.

    Way to avoid my reply or any of the FACTS or POINTS I made. I see instead you have chosen to spin into a history tirade and claim you are trying to be clear. Nice, but anyone can see it is more smoke and mirrors. They are Muslim extremists who planned coordinated riots, "may or may not" does not even come into the picture here.
    Last edited by mostholycerebus; 11-04-2005 at 01:26 AM. Reason: response to attack
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  8. #23
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    Re: Quagmire: Paris

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter
    Taken out of context?? Howso? It does not fit your story? Lets see the exact quote again:
    Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy, who earlier met the dead teenagers' families, said the violence was "not spontaneous" but rather "well organised".

    He said the government would not allow "troublemakers, a bunch of hoodlums, think they can do whatever they want".

    Did not see in there where it is "heat of the moment". Adding more to the story on your own??
    Nope. Not at all. I was referring to your interpretation of the above quote, turning "not spontaneous" into "Because from most reports the riots were pre planned for weeks."

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter
    Looking at all the information in the link you provide you will(or not) see one glaring omission, the fact these are Muslims. As to your link about poor, unemployed Blah, blah, blah. its just more of the same. How about the riots in Denmark now too?? Were they also sparked by the two boys deaths or because they were poor? Be sure to NOT see the boldface part where they say outright they planned the riots for three weeks in advance, it does not fit too nicely into your spin.
    WTF, Scooter. How can I be talking about something you just introduced? I'll get to Denmark in a second. As soon as I read this new twist of yours. But before I do, yes, those who riot, according to the links I gave are mostly Muslim. They are out of work. They riot. They do not deserve your comparison in the first link to terrorist acts.

    The only one blah blah blahing is you. That, and the spin you give in seeing every act that Muslims take part in as being a sign towards everything entirely Muslim and any act of anger or desperation to be considered an act of terror.

    You're in California, remember the watts riots? Rodney King?

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter
    Riots in Denmark
    translation here



    Still going to bury your collective heads in the sand and stick to the " they riot because they are poor" or "this was triggered by the two deaths"mantra?? This is a coordinated event brought on by Muslim extremists. Why you are so protective of these extremists and their activities is really beyond me.
    So we bring in another blogger. At least this one isn't from the christian right saying that Islam is a violent religion in her spouts of bigotry and France getting what they deserve. But the Denmark story is hardly well written. 30-40 youths. At least one unemployed. I have no opinion other than it happened. But I won't assume it is related to Paris and I certainly won't count it as something of a terrorist act.

    My head is buried, Scooter? Riiight. One bloggers story on the internet and you believe it to be a conspiracy that will be in your neighborhood tomorrow.

    I'm not protective of anything that is truly an act of terrorism. Don't you dare insult me with such ranting of garbage.

    I just try to understand the differences that you seem to be blind to. But again, you predicted that in your first post. Your position became clear when you compared Paris riots by out of work immigrants to terrorist acts displayed by http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    But then again, most of the 3000 kills that site you seem fond of by linkage happened in Iraq since we invaded. Every baathist terrorist act by sad-ham's minions is chalked up to Muslim terrorists.

    You need to balance your news sources there Scooter. They are more slanted than CBS.

  9. #24
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    Re: Quagmire: Paris

    Hey guys, less personal attacks, more debate.

  10. #25
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    Re: Quagmire: Paris

    hmm ABC news describes the situation as:
    http://abcnews.go.com/International/...C-RSSFeeds0312

    "Youths ignored an appeal for calm from President Jacques Chirac, whose government worked feverishly to fend off a political crisis amid criticism that it has ignored problems in neighborhoods heavily populated by first- and second-generation North African and Muslim immigrants."

    This seems to support the earlier BBC links I gave of the situation for the cause.

    Except we have our first report that not all participants are Muslim.

  11. #26
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    Re: Quagmire: Paris

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter
    Evils of Radical Islam popular?? I guess that's one way to spin it. If they were not so numerous they would probably be far less "popular", wouldn't ya think?
    I'm not spinning - you are . I am not trying to belittle the problems to do with radical islam in Europe or around the world - I just think the author was associating these riots and radical islam mainly becuase it's the trendy thing at the moment. Maybe more people will be interested in his blog as a result.

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter
    Why do I associate these with the riots (with radical islam)? Because from most reports the riots were pre planned for weeks.
    That makes no sense. Planning is not the sole preserve of militant islam. These riots have been probably been building up for years.

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter
    Your association with other race riots is rather weak.
    Why do you say that?

    Poverty and unemployment, no prospects - check the box.
    Racism and casual discrimination - check the box.
    Lack of integration (the fault of both sides here - perhaps you can stick Islam in here as another barrier to integration of the immigrants and their children) - check the box.
    Hatred + mistrust of the police - check the box.

    Seems pretty good to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter
    Yes, French youths of (shock) the aforementioned religion. Under control of (shock) the radicals from the aforementioned religion. Concern about France? Hardly. More like a good preview of things to come if the West does not wake up soon.
    Where is the evidence that Islamic militants planned the riots?
    France is part of the "West" (don't like that do you ). Unless the US is the only "Western" country?

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter
    A stronger case would be the IRA. These folks want anonymity. I'll get a link for you shortly.
    Au contraire, I think that Red China is a better analogy in this situation.

    Edit: I think what otoc said about broadening your sources of info would be advisable. Little Green Spitballs and similar right-wing blogs going on and on about Islam are having a warping effect on your mind.
    Last edited by h_a_; 11-04-2005 at 06:03 AM.

  12. #27
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    Re: Quagmire: Paris

    Quote Originally Posted by otoc
    hmm ABC news describes the situation as:
    http://abcnews.go.com/International/...C-RSSFeeds0312

    "Youths ignored an appeal for calm from President Jacques Chirac, whose government worked feverishly to fend off a political crisis amid criticism that it has ignored problems in neighborhoods heavily populated by first- and second-generation North African and Muslim immigrants."

    This seems to support the earlier BBC links I gave of the situation for the cause.

    Except we have our first report that not all participants are Muslim.
    Not quite. It seems to me that there may be some confusion over definition here. The vast majority of north africans are infact Islamic, and despite ABC's attempt to seperate the two groups by geographical nuance, their racial stock is rather close as well. The nations consisting of North Africa are Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, and Egypt. If we assume a statistically accurate sampling, 90% of all North African immigrants in France ARE what is commonly considered Muslim, in both genetics and belief system.

    Unless you wanna try the old chestnut "Those aren't REAL Muslims"

    'African' africans, the ones we commonly think of as 'Africans', (read: those of more negroid genetic stock) typically come from central to southern Africa, and consist of a large number of Christians.
    Last edited by mostholycerebus; 11-04-2005 at 06:14 AM.

  13. #28
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    Re: Quagmire: Paris

    Quote Originally Posted by mostholycerebus
    Not quite. It seems to me that there may be some confusion over definition here. The vast majority of north africans are infact Islamic, and despite ABC's attempt to seperate the two groups by geographical nuance, their racial stock is rather close as well. The nations consisting of North Africa are Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, and Egypt. If we assume a statistically accurate sampling, 90% of all North African immigrants in France ARE what is commonly considered Muslim, in both genetics and belief system.

    Unless you wanna try the old chestnut "Those aren't REAL Muslims"

    'African' africans, the ones we commonly think of as 'Africans', (read: those of more negroid genetic stock) typically come from central to southern Africa, and consist of a large number of Christians.
    I'm sorry, I don't see any confusion on my part.

    I haven't stated what the percentage of Muslims participating is. I only point out that the news service points out not all are Muslims.

    Please keep the chestnuts for roasting in the fire. And while you toast those tasty morsels, think about the significance of riots that may have Muslims and Christians arm in arm and in concert against a wrong they feel their host country has caused.

    This is the antithesis of what the OP was in the first post. Even if it is 20 Muslims and one Christian, it has significance that would be hazardous to ignore imho.

  14. #29
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    Re: Quagmire: Paris

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4405620.stm

    The situation seems to be deteriorating steadily. I wonder if they'll have to use the army to put this down??

    edit: this comment made me laugh:

    "Muslim leaders have urged politicians to show respect for immigrant communities."

    Eh...unfortunately when putting down a riot, showing respect won't get you very far.
    Last edited by h_a_; 11-04-2005 at 08:22 AM.

  15. #30
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    Re: Quagmire: Paris

    All I think Scooter is pointing at is the very real possibility that this problem exists in quite a few Euro countries. And its not his [only] position. Indeed yestersday, there was a French right wing leader who said nearly the same thing...that perhaps this is a Muslim problem resulting from unrestrained immigration.
    Not necessarily my take on the deal...but an opinion nonetheless.

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