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  1. #1
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    Male activists want 'say' in unplanned pregnancy

    This is based on an article from
    http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/03/08/fa....ap/index.html

    I don't really have any feelings on this, I just want to hear what you guys think.

    My first thought is that I'm against abortion so therefore I feel that men should equally be held responsible for the resulting pregnancy. However, I don't think this is a simple situation that can be easily solved. Like I said, I'm interested in the opinions of the PC Forum family.

  2. #2
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    Re: Male activists want 'say' in unplanned pregnancy

    I think, upon first reading the article, that it is a perfectly valid point.

    The man has no say in abortion decisions, so why does he also have no say in it financially?

    A woman has all the power in deciding to keep the baby or not, entirely at the man's expense should he not want the baby.

    Whereas if the woman doesn't want the baby, again the man has no say in the matter.

    I think it's long overdue that family courts start treating both sides EQUALLY.

  3. #3
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    Re: Male activists want 'say' in unplanned pregnancy

    The partner and I were arguing about this earlier. I sort of favor such an idea, but she brought up a good point:

    When it comes to conception, things are inherently unequal. Women face not only financial burdens but very real physical and psychological burdens in bearing offspring. Men have the choice as it is of simply walking away and doing as little as they want in the rearing of their progeny. For women, unless they toss the child up for adoption, they are saddled with the strains of childrearing (in addition to the unavoidable burdens of carrying the child and then birthing it). It need not be so, as males are just as capable of caring for offspring (excluding that whole lactation issue). We have enough of a problem getting men to cough up child support, and this will only exacerbate the situation.

    It's a difficult issue, to be sure.
    Promote then, as an object of primary importance, institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened.

  4. #4
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    Re: Male activists want 'say' in unplanned pregnancy

    I hope the kid grows up and learns the truth about his father and hunts him down. What a deadbeat, trying to justify his irresponsibility legally.

    As to the general issue, again I think it's an attempt to justify irresponsiblility. If I was pro-choice for women I guess it'd make sense to be pro-choice for men. But I'm not, I believe in most cases the choice takes place before conception and it boils down to accepting responsibility for your actions, or not.
    Tyan S5397 2x X5450 16GB - SuperMicro H8DCI 2x 275 8GB - Iwill DK8X 2x Opteron 250 2GB


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  5. #5
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    Re: Male activists want 'say' in unplanned pregnancy

    I think the guy has a good case for damages from the woman if she told him that she was unable, not simply unlikely, to conceive. That's crappy and irresponsible.

    We'd have far fewer problems if people who have sex without aiming to conceive would simply use b.c. There are so many methods available now, not just the old-fashioned ones but other more appeal ones, too (lemon juice, anyone?). Spermicide, diaphragms, condoms, spermicidal condoms, candy machines full of pills, patches, injections. There's simply no excuse for not using birth control in this day and age.
    Promote then, as an object of primary importance, institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened.

  6. #6
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    Re: Male activists want 'say' in unplanned pregnancy

    Quote Originally Posted by Trekari
    I think, upon first reading the article, that it is a perfectly valid point.

    The man has no say in abortion decisions, so why does he also have no say in it financially?

    A woman has all the power in deciding to keep the baby or not, entirely at the man's expense should he not want the baby.

    Whereas if the woman doesn't want the baby, again the man has no say in the matter.

    I think it's long overdue that family courts start treating both sides EQUALLY.
    QFT

    Unless there is a threat to the mother, or the child is born with severe deformaties, there is no valid reason for abortion.

    Even if the parents don't wish to take on the new responsibilty, they can still put the child up for adoption, there are many couples out there that want children, but are unable to conceive.


    As another election draws near; the G.O.P. are yet again filled with a stupid confidence that the they will win the White House. What they don't realize about people like Trump, Carson, and Cruz is that their rhetoric only resonates within an echo chamber, but not the American people. They live in an illusion of falsehood and distorted truth and only seek information and opinions that confirm these beliefs and instantly reject anything that contradicts them because only their opinions matter. Their notion of freedom is freedom for themselves and those alike to them, but not the rest of the country which has changed.
    These are the reasons why the G.O.P is set to lose in 2016. And when that happens, rest assured that they will have myriad of conspiracy theories blaming everyone and everything from the liberal media, to Oprah, to welfare moms, and pretty much everyone but their own disgusting selves.



  7. #7
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    Re: Male activists want 'say' in unplanned pregnancy

    Quote Originally Posted by JustinC939

    Unless there is a threat to the mother, or the child is born with severe deformaties, there is no valid reason for abortion.
    Rape? Incest? Underage stupidity?
    Even if the parents don't wish to take on the new responsibilty, they can still put the child up for adoption, there are many couples out there that want children, but are unable to conceive.
    Assuming the parents are a couple, amicable, of cognizant age, and are not pressured by outside sources (such as parents, church, et cetera).

    You oversimply and overgeneralize, my good sir.
    Promote then, as an object of primary importance, institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened.

  8. #8
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    Re: Male activists want 'say' in unplanned pregnancy

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangutan
    Rape? Incest? Underage stupidity?
    Rape,and incest can be a valid reasons for abortios , but underage stupidity is not.
    It's couldn't possibly be that much of a burnen on someone's life to see an adoption center to save an infant.


    Quote Originally Posted by Orangutan
    Assuming the parents are a couple, amicable, of cognizant age, and are not pressured by outside sources (such as parents, church, et cetera).

    You oversimply and overgeneralize, my good sir.
    Yeah, I'm sure there a alot of churches, and parents that would rather kill a baby than give him/her to a loving couple.


    As another election draws near; the G.O.P. are yet again filled with a stupid confidence that the they will win the White House. What they don't realize about people like Trump, Carson, and Cruz is that their rhetoric only resonates within an echo chamber, but not the American people. They live in an illusion of falsehood and distorted truth and only seek information and opinions that confirm these beliefs and instantly reject anything that contradicts them because only their opinions matter. Their notion of freedom is freedom for themselves and those alike to them, but not the rest of the country which has changed.
    These are the reasons why the G.O.P is set to lose in 2016. And when that happens, rest assured that they will have myriad of conspiracy theories blaming everyone and everything from the liberal media, to Oprah, to welfare moms, and pretty much everyone but their own disgusting selves.



  9. #9
    Joined
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    5,358

    Re: Male activists want 'say' in unplanned pregnancy

    Quote Originally Posted by JustinC939
    Rape,and incest can be a valid reasons for abortios , but underage stupidity is not.
    It's couldn't possibly be that much of a burnen on someone's life to see an adoption center to save an infant.
    What do you base the exception when it comes to rape and incest on? What does it actually change from the point of view of the infant?

    Yeah, I'm sure there a alot of churches, and parents that would rather kill a baby than give him/her to a loving couple.
    If you've followed the line the Catholic church has taken in many cases when it comes to married couples, contraception and HIV, then this really is the case.

  10. #10
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    Re: Male activists want 'say' in unplanned pregnancy

    Quote Originally Posted by JustinC939

    Rape,and incest can be a valid reasons for abortios

    So you admit your original assertion is incorrect.

    , but underage stupidity is not.
    It's couldn't possibly be that much of a burnen on someone's life to see an adoption center to save an infant.

    A 14 year old forced to carry a child to term and then birth it isn't burdened? A 14 year old who must be pulled out of school, ostracized by peers and community? At the very least 9 months removed from their life? Mental and physical problems? How about 15 year olds? 16?

    You may not remember, but teenagers have a damn difficult time saying "no" to hormones and peer pressure. Shit happens, and society forcing people to bear offspring helps the problem not at all.

    Yeah, I'm sure there a alot of churches, and parents that would rather kill a baby than give him/her to a loving couple.
    I said nothing of pressure to abort. Rather, there are many who believe that if you conceive a child you should keep and rear it, period. Adoption is simply not an option for a great many people.

    And as Pehu said, contraception is not an option for a large number of people. Thank you Catholocism.
    Promote then, as an object of primary importance, institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened.

  11. #11
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    Re: Male activists want 'say' in unplanned pregnancy

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangutan
    So you admit your original assertion is incorrect.
    No, I said they CAN be vaild reasons, I may not 100% agree with it, but I can deal with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orangutan

    A 14 year old forced to carry a child to term and then birth it isn't burdened? A 14 year old who must be pulled out of school, ostracized by peers and community? At the very least 9 months removed from their life? Mental and physical problems? How about 15 year olds? 16?

    You may not remember, but teenagers have a damn difficult time saying "no" to hormones and peer pressure. Shit happens, and society forcing people to bear offspring helps the problem not at all.
    Okay, everybody has burdens in their life, that's the way it is.
    There comes a time in life to grow up, and the would-be grandparents should step in, and give support.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangutan

    I said nothing of pressure to abort. Rather, there are many who believe that if you conceive a child you should keep and rear it, period. Adoption is simply not an option for a great many people.

    And as Pehu said, contraception is not an option for a large number of people. Thank you Catholocism.
    So, a pregnant teen, would rather abort than put the child up for adoption, because their faith believes that you should keep, and rear it?

    I'm not a religous person, so I don't quite think like they do, but as I see it; better off that the infant is alive being cared by adoptive parents rather then dead.

    I know Cathlolics wouldn't condone murder, so I don't see why abortion would be considered a logical alternative.


    Geez, one of the few conservative issues I agree on, and I get no support.......go figure


    As another election draws near; the G.O.P. are yet again filled with a stupid confidence that the they will win the White House. What they don't realize about people like Trump, Carson, and Cruz is that their rhetoric only resonates within an echo chamber, but not the American people. They live in an illusion of falsehood and distorted truth and only seek information and opinions that confirm these beliefs and instantly reject anything that contradicts them because only their opinions matter. Their notion of freedom is freedom for themselves and those alike to them, but not the rest of the country which has changed.
    These are the reasons why the G.O.P is set to lose in 2016. And when that happens, rest assured that they will have myriad of conspiracy theories blaming everyone and everything from the liberal media, to Oprah, to welfare moms, and pretty much everyone but their own disgusting selves.



  12. #12
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    Re: Male activists want 'say' in unplanned pregnancy

    Let's not get too far into a debate of abortion itself.

    The topic of this thread is whether the father should have equal rights under the law to absolve himself of responsibility for an unwanted child, since the mother can easily make that decision arbitrarily by simply having an abortion.

    1) Man wants child, woman doesn't: Abortion, no say in the matter for the man.
    2) Woman wants child, man doesn't: Woman gives birth, man has no say in the matter and is forced into child support.

    In case #1 the woman gets what she wants, and the man doesn't.
    In case #2 the woman gets what she wants, and the man doesn't.

    Explain to me how that is equal, considering that a woman absolutely can NOT be forced into child support for a pregnancy she doesn't want because it is entirely her perogative to have the baby or abort it.

    It takes two to get pregnant, so why does only the woman have the power to carry through, or terminate the pregnancy? Only the woman currently has the option to absolve her responsibility entirely. That is the underlying issue, let's stick to that, k?

  13. #13
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    Re: Male activists want 'say' in unplanned pregnancy

    Quote Originally Posted by Trekari
    Let's not get too far into a debate of abortion itself.

    The topic of this thread is whether the father should have equal rights under the law to absolve himself of responsibility for an unwanted child, since the mother can easily make that decision arbitrarily by simply having an abortion.

    1) Man wants child, woman doesn't: Abortion, no say in the matter for the man.
    2) Woman wants child, man doesn't: Woman gives birth, man has no say in the matter and is forced into child support.

    In case #1 the woman gets what she wants, and the man doesn't.
    In case #2 the woman gets what she wants, and the man doesn't.

    Explain to me how that is equal, considering that a woman absolutely can NOT be forced into child support for a pregnancy she doesn't want because it is entirely her perogative to have the baby or abort it.

    It takes two to get pregnant, so why does only the woman have the power to carry through, or terminate the pregnancy? Only the woman currently has the option to absolve her responsibility entirely. That is the underlying issue, let's stick to that, k?
    While abortion is legal, I feel the male in the relationship should have a say in the matter, considering that the child wouldn't be possible without him, but how would the issue be resolved in the event of disagreement?

    To look at it another way:
    It would legally be considered murder if the child were killed by the actions of the father, but abortion is the result of the mother's actions, so I see a double standard.

    I know the mother doesn't physically kill the baby, but in the end it is her decision.


    As another election draws near; the G.O.P. are yet again filled with a stupid confidence that the they will win the White House. What they don't realize about people like Trump, Carson, and Cruz is that their rhetoric only resonates within an echo chamber, but not the American people. They live in an illusion of falsehood and distorted truth and only seek information and opinions that confirm these beliefs and instantly reject anything that contradicts them because only their opinions matter. Their notion of freedom is freedom for themselves and those alike to them, but not the rest of the country which has changed.
    These are the reasons why the G.O.P is set to lose in 2016. And when that happens, rest assured that they will have myriad of conspiracy theories blaming everyone and everything from the liberal media, to Oprah, to welfare moms, and pretty much everyone but their own disgusting selves.



  14. #14
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    Re: Male activists want 'say' in unplanned pregnancy

    Quote Originally Posted by Trekari
    Let's not get too far into a debate of abortion itself.

    The topic of this thread is whether the father should have equal rights under the law to absolve himself of responsibility for an unwanted child, since the mother can easily make that decision arbitrarily by simply having an abortion.

    1) Man wants child, woman doesn't: Abortion, no say in the matter for the man.
    2) Woman wants child, man doesn't: Woman gives birth, man has no say in the matter and is forced into child support.

    In case #1 the woman gets what she wants, and the man doesn't.
    In case #2 the woman gets what she wants, and the man doesn't.
    In both cases 1 & 2 the man already got what he wanted. Now it's time to live up to the consequences.
    Explain to me how that is equal, considering that a woman absolutely can NOT be forced into child support for a pregnancy she doesn't want because it is entirely her perogative to have the baby or abort it.

    It takes two to get pregnant, so why does only the woman have the power to carry through, or terminate the pregnancy? Only the woman currently has the option to absolve her responsibility entirely. That is the underlying issue, let's stick to that, k?
    It comes down to basic biological differences between male and female, as Orang's better half pointed out to him. Although I sense an overuse of the term 'burden'. As Justin pointed out, we all got 'burdens', and his position is consistant, he thinks both parties should live up to their responsibility.

    Why is there an apparent double standard? The survival/perpetuation of almost every species depends on females. Generally humans are monogamous, and the human strategy for protecting young has been for the male to take a very active role in providing for/protecting the nest. There's plenty of species, even some human societies, that take different strategies, and the male is simply a contributor of genetic material. It's simply a societal norm reflecting a more basal natural instinct. So it's no surprise to see it in our laws.

    But it does present a logical conundrum for the pro-choice position. Logically the man should have the same 'choices' and 'freedoms' as the woman. But the logic must be tempered by reality. If you ask me, it's just an attempt by either party to ignore reality and avoid responsibility.
    Tyan S5397 2x X5450 16GB - SuperMicro H8DCI 2x 275 8GB - Iwill DK8X 2x Opteron 250 2GB


    Take a Kid FISHING!

  15. #15
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    Re: Male activists want 'say' in unplanned pregnancy

    or better yet keep those panst on, if you don't want a child.

    simple no?
    Apple MackBook Pro Intel vers duel booted with Vista

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