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  1. #46
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    Re: Thousands march to support law breakers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangutan
    Ah, therein lies the rub. One reason for bringing up Rosa Parks is the spurious nature of the term illegal. A person cannot be illegal, their existence cannot be against the law (yet at least). Calling illegal immigrants illegals is a way that people try to differentiate themselves as fundamentally different from the other group. It's akin to calling someone a(n) racial or ethnic pejorative, really a pejorative of any kind. Illegal satisfies the qualities of the pejorative, functioning as an increasingly less subtle substitute for racial derogatives like our good friend bugala relates. These people are immigrants, by their very nature individuals who have in migrated to this country from another one. They are not illegal, their existence as human beings does not violate some legal code; they are illegal immigrants, aliens, what have you. I mean, come on, there is already a noun in the term! Why would you take the adjective and make it substantive?

    If the definition of illegal relates to breaking the law, then Rosa Parks was an illegal as she broke the law in Montgomery. Every time you speed over the limit, you become an illegal. It's a nothing term, a way for the people on the Right to distance themselves as better (whiter, in reality). The title of the thread says "Thousands march to support law breakers". I brought up Rosa Parks in reaction to the title and to the use of the word illegal. Thousands of people marched in support of that illegal, that law-breaker named Rosa Parks. Just because a law exists does not mean that it is fas. Do you get it yet? Rosa Parks broke the law. Rosa Parks committed an illegal act, just as illegal immigrants migrated illegally.
    Illegals used to be illegal immigrants but was obviously trimmed down as the usage of that phrase has become more and more prevalent due to the widespread illegal immigration we have. I think you're reading into it way too much. I keep hearing about this guy Dubya but there is in fact no George Dubya Bush on this planet. Also despite common misconceptions there is no such creature as a moon bat and repugs are not a political party of the US. The reds were not an actual group but it turns out that the Communists were.

    These are just snide and unfavorable ways of referring to such. When someone says illegal I don't believe that they're referring the the very existence of a person to be illegal but rather that they're referring to an illegal immigrant. It seems you have understood what that means as well. I'm really not trying to come off as sarcastic so please don't take it as such but you're splitting hairs over nothing. We're all talking about the same thing until you start arguing that Rosa Parks is an illegal when you're probably well aware that when anyone in this thread said "illegal" they were talking about an illegal immigrant.

    And Rosa Parks was important in establishing the rights of citizens of the US. Things that were once illegal are no longer illegal, I understand the point. One thing that you can count on is that illegal immigration will always be illegal immigration not only in the US but in just about every other country on this entire planet and will probably remain that way for the foreseeable future. I think that the recognition of basic human rights is already the standard and I have not been seeing our hospitals turning away any illegal immigrants no matter how much it burdens our own society. Likewise we don't shoot them, we set them free so that we can catch them again tommorrow. I know you've had an axe to grind with the entire topic of illegal immigration but I don't believe there's any violations of human rights and if anything the citizens of the US are taking care of them at our own expense.

  2. #47
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    Re: Thousands march to support law breakers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangutan
    Ah, therein lies the rub. One reason for bringing up Rosa Parks is the spurious nature of the term illegal. A person cannot be illegal, their existence cannot be against the law (yet at least). Calling illegal immigrants illegals is a way that people try to differentiate themselves as fundamentally different from the other group. It's akin to calling someone a(n) racial or ethnic pejorative, really a pejorative of any kind. Illegal satisfies the qualities of the pejorative, functioning as an increasingly less subtle substitute for racial derogatives like our good friend bugala relates. These people are immigrants, by their very nature individuals who have in migrated to this country from another one. They are not illegal, their existence as human beings does not violate some legal code; they are illegal immigrants, aliens, what have you. I mean, come on, there is already a noun in the term! Why would you take the adjective and make it substantive?

    If the definition of illegal relates to breaking the law, then Rosa Parks was an illegal as she broke the law in Montgomery. Every time you speed over the limit, you become an illegal. It's a nothing term, a way for the people on the Right to distance themselves as better (whiter, in reality). The title of the thread says "Thousands march to support law breakers". I brought up Rosa Parks in reaction to the title and to the use of the word illegal. Thousands of people marched in support of that illegal, that law-breaker named Rosa Parks. Just because a law exists does not mean that it is fas. Do you get it yet? Rosa Parks broke the law. Rosa Parks committed an illegal act, just as illegal immigrants migrated illegally.
    Are you serious? Is this what you spend your days thinking about? Orang, come on, this is the US. Everything is abbreviated for Christ's sake! I just abbreviated your screen name for instance. Lol, now I know who they coined the term "liberal white guilt" for.
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

    Edmund Burke

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  3. #48
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    Re: Thousands march to support law breakers.

    Quote Originally Posted by kbohip
    Are you serious? Is this what you spend your days thinking about? Orang, come on, this is the US. Everything is abbreviated for Christ's sake! I just abbreviated your screen name for instance. Lol, now I know who they coined the term "liberal white guilt" for.

    IMO, the only thing serious about his posts in this thread was that the initial post absolutely HAD to be something completely opposite of no2guncntrl's viewpoint. This opposite viewpoint, the anti-conservative viewpoint, of course had to be supported and defended, only for the sake of being the opposite viewpoint.

    As for Georgia--right on target.

  4. #49
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    Re: Thousands march to support law breakers.

    I look at this as just another immigration law that cannot or will not be enforced. If you’re looking to the White House for enforcement forget about it. GWB and Vicente Fox are to busy sodomizing each other to worry about illegal immigration issues. All the dingbats in WDC and your state capital fill the same cheap suit when it comes to immigration and or illegal immigration issues. Some talk tough but in the end they will not do a damned thing about it.

    Like in the EU the key words are: “Appease and Accommodate”.

    Aside from that, put all the people who knowing hire illigals in jail and keep em there until they quit, exception for Dutch .

    The only way to seal the southern border is with military presence on the border, National Guard.

    One final thought.

    Rosa Parks?

    Did they bury her yet?

    Or

    Are all the politicians and celebrities still bloviating over her open casket? Talk about overkill.

  5. #50
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    Re: Thousands march to support law breakers.

    Unfortunately, while I think Dubya is a nice guy, given his position on terrorism, his continual push to befriend illegals makes the War on terror a joke. Screw Vicente Fox and Mexico, Bush. Even Sean Hannity is getting pissed about this (I was shocked to hear him say something against the current administration on the radio---must mean Bush is in deep shit now )

  6. #51
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    Re: Thousands march to support law breakers.

    No here's a subject where I go past the conservatives on capitol hill thinking.

    They should not be allowed to stay under any circumstances Other than going thru legal immigration channels like everyone else who came here.

    I love the "they're doing work that no one here will do" arguement. The reason no one here will do the work is because they will work for less money & benefits. If they were all gone, employers would have to raise the pay to get someone to do the job. Yes, we might have to pay more for the products & labor, but to me it'd be worth it.

    And don't get me started on "Homeland Security"!

    You can't have ANY homeland security when you have MILLIONS poring across the borders.
    The politicians will do nothing drastic on this issue because they are all afraid of losing the Hispanic vote.

    What part of the word ILLEGAL doesn't anybody understand?
    The Heat 99-0-0

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  7. #52
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    2,710

    Re: Thousands march to support law breakers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soundforbjt
    No here's a subject where I go past the conservatives on capitol hill thinking.

    They should not be allowed to stay under any circumstances Other than going thru legal immigration channels like everyone else who came here.

    I love the "they're doing work that no one here will do" arguement. The reason no one here will do the work is because they will work for less money & benefits. If they were all gone, employers would have to raise the pay to get someone to do the job. Yes, we might have to pay more for the products & labor, but to me it'd be worth it.

    And don't get me started on "Homeland Security"!

    You can't have ANY homeland security when you have MILLIONS poring across the borders.
    The politicians will do nothing drastic on this issue because they are all afraid of losing the Hispanic vote.

    What part of the word ILLEGAL doesn't anybody understand?
    Exactly.

    There are perfectly legal ways to gain citizenship in this country. To argue that they are somehow "fighting" for something is ridiculous. There are ways to become a legal U.S. citizen yet these people won't use those means. These illegals are a burden to our already over-burdened society, taking advantage of our systems.

    It's time to fence the borders, patrol them vigorously and keep illegals out. The cost of doing these things will be much less than the burden these individuals place on our society.

  8. #53
    Joined
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    8,887

    Re: Thousands march to support law breakers.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimzinsocal
    Dont you think thats more of a semantic arguement? Illegal immigrant reduced as a matter of convenience to illegal? As opposed to immigrants that follow law being termed legal immigrants.
    It's a matter of "convenience" in that it allows people to distance themselves from the other. Semantics are everything. If I came up to you and said, " xaipe doule kai lue ton lithon", it would mean nothing to you. You might look at me funny and perhaps tell me to speak English. Why? Because for you, the words have no meaning. Words in and of themselves are meaningless. We ascribe meanings to them, thus giving them power. Red is just the word we use to describe a certain set of wavelengths of light. Does it inherently mean that? No, of course not. We shape our world using our words and the power we invest therein. "War on terror", "war on drugs", "collateral damage", "insurgency". Semantics? Meaning is everything.

    Racial? I think that connotation oversensitizes the issue.
    Look at post #8, for one. Then look at the history of immigration in the United States. For example:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese...ited_States%29

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_peril

    Race is inexorably tied to immigration.

    It may be a nifty set up to associate the acts of illegally entering this country as a civil rights issue, but for me its a weak association.
    Who is doing that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowball 2
    Illegals used to be illegal immigrants but was obviously trimmed down as the usage of that phrase has become more and more prevalent due to the widespread illegal immigration we have. I think you're reading into it way too much. I keep hearing about this guy Dubya but there is in fact no George Dubya Bush on this planet. Also despite common misconceptions there is no such creature as a moon bat and repugs are not a political party of the US. The reds were not an actual group but it turns out that the Communists were.

    These are just snide and unfavorable ways of referring to such. When someone says illegal I don't believe that they're referring the the very existence of a person to be illegal but rather that they're referring to an illegal immigrant. It seems you have understood what that means as well. I'm really not trying to come off as sarcastic so please don't take it as such but you're splitting hairs over nothing.
    I don't think it's over nothing. Look at the word "nip", for example. The name of Japan is Nippon. Shorten that up to "nip" and soon you have a brief way of referring to someone from Nippon. You wouldn't call someone a "nip" now, would you?

    We're all talking about the same thing until you start arguing that Rosa Parks is an illegal when you're probably well aware that when anyone in this thread said "illegal" they were talking about an illegal immigrant.
    Ah, but I don't agree with that term nor its implications. Substantival adjectives are useful in some cases, but I don't believe this is one.

    And Rosa Parks was important in establishing the rights of citizens of the US. Things that were once illegal are no longer illegal, I understand the point. One thing that you can count on is that illegal immigration will always be illegal immigration not only in the US but in just about every other country on this entire planet and will probably remain that way for the foreseeable future. I think that the recognition of basic human rights is already the standard and I have not been seeing our hospitals turning away any illegal immigrants no matter how much it burdens our own society. Likewise we don't shoot them, we set them free so that we can catch them again tommorrow. I know you've had an axe to grind with the entire topic of illegal immigration but I don't believe there's any violations of human rights and if anything the citizens of the US are taking care of them at our own expense.
    I agree. It would behove us all to bear in mind that just because a law is on the books, that law is not necessarily right. To say that someone is wrong simply for breaking the law is a little too cut and dry for me, too black and white. Rosa Parks was a good way to show that we have other instances of people marching in support of law-breakers.

    Quote Originally Posted by kbohip
    Are you serious? Is this what you spend your days thinking about? Orang, come on, this is the US. Everything is abbreviated for Christ's sake! I just abbreviated your screen name for instance. Lol, now I know who they coined the term "liberal white guilt" for.
    I spend my days doing many things, including considering how we shape our world through our words. The idea of the word as power is old. Look at the Bible, for instance. God spoke, and it was so. In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God.

    Quote Originally Posted by mwessinger
    IMO, the only thing serious about his posts in this thread was that the initial post absolutely HAD to be something completely opposite of no2guncntrl's viewpoint. This opposite viewpoint, the anti-conservative viewpoint, of course had to be supported and defended, only for the sake of being the opposite viewpoint.
    Had I presented the opposite viewpoint, I would've argued along the lines of "encourage illegal immigration" or "give illegal immigrants the rights of citizenship". I don't recall doing that, do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soundforbjt
    If they were all gone, employers would have to raise the pay to get someone to do the job. Yes, we might have to pay more for the products & labor, but to me it'd be worth it.
    That's all well and good, but frankly, the American consumer doesn't care about it enough. That's why we have Wal-Mart, after all. If the average consumer actually cared about buying better quality and/or "American-built" products, they wouldn't shop at Wal-Mart. Instead, the average consumer wants cheap and easy, period. And that's assuming the companies wouldn't just pick up shop and move out of the U.S. to continue exploiting cheap labor.

    I shop at organic and locally owned stores. I actually go out of my way to shop at places other than Wal-Mart and the like.
    Promote then, as an object of primary importance, institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened.

  9. #54
    Joined
    Aug 2001
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    74,682

    Re: Thousands march to support law breakers.

    Recall your point "who is doing that"

    and

    "I agree. It would behove us all to bear in mind that just because a law is on the books, that law is not necessarily right. To say that someone is wrong simply for breaking the law is a little too cut and dry for me, too black and white. Rosa Parks was a good way to show that we have other instances of people marching in support of law-breakers."


    You are. You have managed to reframe an illegal immigrant issue as an imagined civil rights issue.
    Its not a civil rights issue. Unless youd like to also rewrite most conventional definitions and concepts that suggest civil rights are an extension of citizenship.

    I simply dont buy the connection no matter how attractive it may be from a propaganda point of view. I also dont buy the concept or attempted sales pitch that a burglar is the same as an uninvited house guest.
    Sorta like rationalizing people who steal from the local farmer by questioning our concept of private ownership.
    Last edited by jimzinsocal; 03-26-2006 at 10:38 PM.

  10. #55
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    Re: Thousands march to support law breakers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soundforbjt
    No here's a subject where I go past the conservatives on capitol hill thinking.

    They should not be allowed to stay under any circumstances Other than going thru legal immigration channels like everyone else who came here.

    I love the "they're doing work that no one here will do" arguement. The reason no one here will do the work is because they will work for less money & benefits. If they were all gone, employers would have to raise the pay to get someone to do the job. Yes, we might have to pay more for the products & labor, but to me it'd be worth it.

    And don't get me started on "Homeland Security"!

    You can't have ANY homeland security when you have MILLIONS poring across the borders.
    The politicians will do nothing drastic on this issue because they are all afraid of losing the Hispanic vote.

    What part of the word ILLEGAL doesn't anybody understand?
    It's a big joke isn't it? Bush is dead set on getting rid of terrorists in the war on terror, yet the border between the US and Mexico is practically wide open! Terrorists could drive dune buggies loaded with shoulder mounted rocket launchers across the border and I doubt anyone would know it.
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

    Edmund Burke

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  11. #56
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    Re: Thousands march to support law breakers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangutan



    That's all well and good, but frankly, the American consumer doesn't care about it enough. That's why we have Wal-Mart, after all. If the average consumer actually cared about buying better quality and/or "American-built" products, they wouldn't shop at Wal-Mart. Instead, the average consumer wants cheap and easy, period. And that's assuming the companies wouldn't just pick up shop and move out of the U.S. to continue exploiting cheap labor.

    I shop at organic and locally owned stores. I actually go out of my way to shop at places other than Wal-Mart and the like.
    The labor alot of them are doing (landscaping, hotel workers, construction, picking crops, etc.) couldn't be outsourced, therefore your arguement is not valid.
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  12. #57
    Joined
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    Fort Collins, CO
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    1,235

    Re: Thousands march to support law breakers.

    The biggest problem this country has right now is Bush.

    He wants to fight an executive war on terror, yet leaves our borders wide open. He breaks the laws he feels don't fit within his agenda and claims it's all being done under Article 2, so it's ok. The laws he can't outright break, he wants to re-write to fit his agenda, etc.

    Illegal immigrants have no place in this country other than a jail cell while a bus is sent to ship thier asses back home. There should be no asylum, no special consideration for the job they do that supposedly no American will do, and certainly no 'guest worker' program.

    We HAVE legal methods to immigrate to this country. Every other law we have that someone breaks results in punishment, yet the most basic of National Security laws gets ignored over and over again. It's a shame really that those 500,000 protesters weren't asked for forms of ID and shipped out of this country if they didn't have citizenship.

    Granted that would be treading close to illegality due to questionable probable cause, but that's my emotional state at the moment regarding this DECADES OLD PROBLEM.

    It's all talk! That's all our damn Government does! Blah, blah, f-ing BLAH is all they ever do, and never take a hard stance on ANYTHING because that might impact their votes.

  13. #58
    Joined
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    2,159

    Re: Thousands march to support law breakers.

    so how bout spending another 1% of the GDP and erecting a big Ash fence. This issue hits home to me cuz i have a good Liberian friend who is having a hell of a time with INS.....He was at the point for his final interview but he moved...they mispelled his address he never got the letter for his final interview ...however he did get the letter saying he missed his final interview(misspelled address and all) and he needed to restart his naturalization process all over again..... He was born in liberia spent most of his life in the US lived in Liberia for 2 years while in highschool came back has been here for almost a decade....and he has to restart his naturalization process cuz they mispelled his address......yet. More hispanics are allowed "legally" to become citizens than any other ethnic group....and i have to here them bitch about trying to stop illegals from coming over.....horse crap. I will go ahead and SAY it. I dont want to live in Mexico so let the Illegals take a note...thier lives will continue to be crap even if they come over here why...cuz the people with the money dont want to live in "Mexico" either.

  14. #59
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    Re: Thousands march to support law breakers.

    The sad thing is it’s to damn late to stop the tsunami now. Mexican’s and Mexico already have an unbreakable chokehold on the southwest and they are marching in all directions. When alpha 03 calls it a silent mexican invasion he is absolutely right. The war started in the 70’s and became a full-blown war when Regan granted amnesty in 1986 to 2.7 million illegal immigrants.

    The illegal-immigration war with Mexico is going have far more disastrous consequences on the United States than the war on terror will ever have. At least in the war on terror you can kill the enemy but in the illegal-immigration war ya can’t.

    Conservative tolerance, "liberal white guilt" and political opportunism are going to be a deathblow to the United States as we knew it yesterday and as we know it today.
    Last edited by tucker; 03-26-2006 at 07:32 PM.

  15. #60
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    Re: Thousands march to support law breakers.

    An update on the demonstrations supporting these lawbreakers >
    http://www.yahoo.com/s/135782/*http:...co/immigration

    Protests raged across the country over the weekend, led by more than 500,000 people who marched through downtown Los Angeles on Saturday in one of the largest demonstrations for any cause in recent U.S. history. Marchers also took to the streets in Phoenix, Milwaukee, Dallas and Columbus, Ohio.

    Demonstrations continued Sunday, when nearly 3,000 people, many wrapped in Mexican flags, rallied at the Ohio Statehouse in Columbus and an estimated 3,500 United Farm Workers members and their supporters protested in Los Angeles.
    Sen.Frisk has it right.
    Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., has said that whether or not a bill gets out of the Judiciary Committee, he is opening two weeks of debate on the issue Tuesday. He has offered a plan that would tighten borders, add Border Patrol agents and punish employers who hire illegal immigrants because he says the most important concern is improving national security in an age of terrorism. His bill sidesteps the question of temporary work permits, but he has said he's open to the idea.
    Sen.Tancredo has it spot on.
    Critics like Rep. Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., say that would give amnesty to people who have broken the law by entering the country without permission.

    "It's a slap in the face to every single person who has done it the right way, and to everybody who's waiting out there to do it the right way," Tancredo said. "It's bad policy. And it's also, I think, for the Republican Party especially, bad policy."
    Sen Spector has it flat wrong as does Sen
    Kennedy and President Bush. For example..
    Judiciary Chairman Arlen Specter, R-Pa., also supports the idea and has vowed that his committee will advance a bill to the full Senate on Monday, even if they have to work "very, very late into the night."

    "If they're prepared to work to become American citizens in the long line traditionally of immigrants who have helped make this country, we can have both a nation of laws and a welcoming nation of workers who do some very, very important jobs for our economy," Specter said Sunday on ABC's "This Week."
    Sen.Kennndy's view..
    "We have spent $20 billion on chains and fences and border guards and dogs in the southern border over the last 10 years," Kennedy said on "Face the Nation" on CBS. "And it doesn't work. What we need is a comprehensive approach. I think President Bush understands it.
    Having the military on the borders would make
    things interesting for those who come here
    illegally and setting up a bounty for illegals
    would surely get some results..

    Allowing this illegal immigration matter to slowly
    creep into the U.S has brought out massive
    demonstrations supporting FEDERAL LAW
    BREAKERS. Were any of us here in U.S to
    break a law, we'd be prosecuted, pay a fine
    or/and do jail time. Illegals come here and
    get rewarded..That sound right
    to you ?

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