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  1. #31
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    816

    Re: Israel gets it.....while the rest of the world holds its breath

    Quote Originally Posted by jimzinsocal
    And if people learn what these elected goons cause? They wont be elected again.
    We are talking about Lebanon here, aren't we?
    Hizbollah do not run the govt. in Lebanon and they can't be said to represent even a majority of the Lebanese people. They are popular however, get lots of support from outside Lebanon, and I think I read somewhere that they have a minister in the Lebanese govt.

    Maybe the chain of events will be like this:

    So far we have Hizbollah doing something absolutely cerifiable and raiding over the border into Israel to kidnap and murder Israeli soldiers + firing rockets at Israel.

    Israel then wails on Lebanon as a whole, destroying civilian infrastructure, blockading the ports etc - supposedly to "get the Lebanese govt. to act against Hizbollah" or "to block weapons flows to Hizbollah" (as Bryan mentioned - the Lebanase govt. probably doesn't have the wherewithal to crack down on Hizbollah alone anyway given its support from the outside and its popularity).

    Things are escalating at the moment instead of cooling off. Hizbollah's attacks have got worse now - so naturally Israel will probably retaliate with more force.

    Israel's attacks will weaken the current govt. in Lebanon.
    It will have the same negative effects on the young, West-looking, pro=democracy constituency in Lebanon as have been predicted for the scenario of a US attack on Iran. If Israel keep it up - there probably won't be any more elections there anyway - and the people with the biggest guns (Hizbollah) will be in the driving seat afterwards. Maybe Israel will have to reoccupy Lebanon again because there will be no-one left to work with?

    Funny - I remember the large pro-democracy, Syria-out protests got alot of praise from the Go-Israel Bombs-Away people on this board.
    Now we see the truth - many here don't really give much of a crap what any of the damned ey-rabs in the ME think and just want to see the IDF go on the offensive and kill a few.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimzinsocal
    Really. And what is the perfect solution?
    HTH would I know!
    Build a massive padded cell for the lot of them and chuck the key away?
    Build a thunderdome somewhere in the Negev desert for the Israeli leaders, the rabbis, the settlers, the bosses and finaciers of the various terrorist groups, the dictators, and the mullahs to fight it out?

    Quote Originally Posted by jimzinsocal
    Shall the world make Israel evaporate cause these nuts have a bug in the anus that will never be dislodged?
    Well, if there's no hope at all why not just kill them all now. Why is Israel not trying to kill as many people as possible?
    Oh wait, that thought has already been posted many many times here hasn't it?
    Of course the same goes for the other side doesn't it?
    Maybe Hizbollah and Hamas et al. have the right of it and there is no coming to any accomodation with "the Zionist Entity" -> we'll do our best to throw the Jews into the sea etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimzinsocal
    Or shall we try the Jimmy Carter type approach. Lets talk. Lets dream dreams and by the way? How much did you want me to write that check for?
    There is nothing to talk about. IMO
    So kill them all it is then.
    And I'm definitely some kind of loopy peace-nik because I think going to war in this situation is a bad mistake.

    TLR - where breaking out the military is always the correct option and peace is really for pansies. So long as your enemy is weak and you can't really lose in the short run.
    Browsing this board over the past few days has reminded me why I started to post here and also why I don't post here much any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimzinsocal
    How far did "talking" to Adolph get the Europeans years ago?
    And what wxactly was done finally to resolve the problem?
    Nazi's died. They were crushed.
    I really don't know what to say to that to be honest.

    Hitler is indeed an excellent example of a leader who thought that peace was for pansies, might is right if you have it, and going to war to get what you want quickly is always the good option if the balance of forces stack up vastly in your favour.

    But freedom is still the best bet (for Iran)
    What a shame somebody didn't give the US and the UK a memo on this 50 years or so when a pet-dictator who supplies cheap oil in return for shiny military geegaws and a hedonistic lifestyle for him and his buddies was considered a better bet than an unpredictable but popular nationaist pinko.

    Support for strong democratic states requires seriousness.
    Trying to work with the Lebanese govt. against Hizbollah would be "support".
    Deciding to destroy Lebanon's recently rebuilt infrastructure (which things necessary for a healthy democracy like you know, making money, a good economy etc depend on) is not "support" IMO.

    If it is, why isn't the US bombing Pakistan to support it's dictatorship against the terrorists and fundamentalists (who have popular support and probably have people high up in the Pakistani govt. aswell)?
    Last edited by h_a_; 07-15-2006 at 10:04 AM.

  2. #32
    Joined
    Oct 2004
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    816

    Re: Israel gets it.....while the rest of the world holds its breath

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter
    The victim bit just ain't gonna work for them any more.
    But it has always worked so well for Israel. You, know, the pluckly little fighter with its back to the sea, facing off against the treacherous Arab hordes and all that crap.

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter
    Cowardly statements?
    You misunderstand. The statement suggests to me that the US govt. is afraid that Israel may go too far and send Lebanon back to the 80's again but won't dare criticise Israel in public.
    So we get a kind of wishy-washy message. Israel has the "right to defend itself" but "don't upset the applecart". I wonder what is being said in private?
    Last edited by h_a_; 07-15-2006 at 10:40 AM.

  3. #33
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    74,682

    Re: Israel gets it.....while the rest of the world holds its breath

    ^^Im not trying to be pro military is the only option...but jeez. What a mess.
    My comparison to a Hitler type was only to illustrate perhaps...the "driven position" of these nuts....that I simply dont see changing. They arent negotiating from a political position. Their religion instructs them to carry out the acts.
    Where can negotion go when one side is 100% convinced that the real estate Israel sits on is actually "occupied Muslim land"

    I guess what Im trying to say is "force" is one option that shouldnt be dismissed casually because some folks find it unsettling.
    The Lebanese nuts injected themselves into the mess and Israel has a right to respond.
    And the terms of that response shouldnt be written by terrorists.
    Last edited by jimzinsocal; 07-15-2006 at 10:25 AM.

  4. #34
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    816

    Re: Israel gets it.....while the rest of the world holds its breath

    ^^Yes. It is a big mess. You'd get so sick of it really.
    The use of force does have a place but you won't change my opinion that Israel has overreacted here or that it reaches for the club too easily because it is in such a position of power militarily relative to the other countries around it.

    Anyway, that's all I've got to say.

  5. #35
    Joined
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    5,051

    Re: Israel gets it.....while the rest of the world holds its breath

    Oh man, now I see where this is coming from.

    Their religion instructs them to carry out the acts.
    The religion doesn't instruct them to do this, it has the same basic principles as the Jewish and Chritistian commandments. Thou Shalt Not Kill. For one the Islamic religion has the same basis, it actually contains alot of the Old Testment as part of the Islamic teachings.

    The problem with Islam is it has no central authority, it has religious scholars.

    Because there is no central authority, it allows scholars a large degree of latitude and its very hard to prevent a scholar from preaching his version of the Islamic traditions.

    "occupied Muslim land"
    Actually its "occupied Palestinian land", which is true considering the Israeli's recieved a small partition of the country from the British just afer WW2 and that sparked the begining of the troubles we see now. ( As a historical note, the historical holdings of the Jewish state was the inland section of current Israel and they never had the sea side area.)

    The Lebanese nuts injected themselves into the mess and Israel has a right to respond.
    Hezbollah dosen't represent the people of Lebanon, its one faction amongst many. ( There is a strong very militant faction of Christian's there as well.)

    Hezbollah is concentrated near the Israeli border as thats where the refuge camps are, and where there chief recruits come from. ( Palestinian refuges for the record.)

    Force against the terrorist is fine, but when you start attacking the civilian population and another country to boot then your crossing a line.

    Israel is not that innocent, it has conducted assassinations inside and outside its borders, has conducted kidnappings and has violated many international laws.

    And on both sides small very vocal and empowered groups are pushing those who don't support there cause in to the line of fire.

  6. #36
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    Re: Israel gets it.....while the rest of the world holds its breath

    1. "Their" religion does indeed instruct them. Note I did not say Muslim
    2. They are again instructed by "their" version of Islam to reclaim real estate. The poiint is, once in their possession its always "theirs". Try that logic with a home pirchase.
    3. Nobody has said Hezbullah represents all Lebanese people. I refer to Hezbullah as the "nuts" who injected themselves into the situation.
    4. Yes Im sure there has been misdeeds on both sided over the years. How is that relevant?

    Again, you apply political logic to a situation driven by a particular strain of religion.
    Last edited by jimzinsocal; 07-15-2006 at 06:20 PM.

  7. #37
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    Re: Israel gets it.....while the rest of the world holds its breath

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan

    Actually its "occupied Palestinian land", which is true considering the Israeli's recieved a small partition of the country from the British just afer WW2 and that sparked the begining of the troubles we see now. ( As a historical note, the historical holdings of the Jewish state was the inland section of current Israel and they never had the sea side area.)
    Brian

  8. #38
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    Re: Israel gets it.....while the rest of the world holds its breath

    ^^My point earlier. Land is not "born" with Islamic possesion as the extremists assume.

  9. #39
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    Re: Israel gets it.....while the rest of the world holds its breath

    That map by the way is during the Roman occupation and not the historical boundaries.

    My point earlier. Land is not "born" with Islamic possesion as the extremists assume.
    And its not a Jewish possession either which is endorsed by the Settlers, Orthodox Jews and fundamentalist Christian Sects.

    4. Yes Im sure there has been misdeeds on both sided over the years. How is that relevant?
    Its the key problem with this the whole situation, you'll get a nice little fuzzy period where nothing is happening then you'll get a stupid blind side. ( Settler expansion, targeted assassination of a suspected terrorist, Settler/Soldier kidnapped, rockets fired from Gaza, ect.)

    Then the moderates on both sides get riled up and start supporting actions to have revenge.

    Its the core problem, no one is willing to reign in there extremists.

  10. #40
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    Re: Israel gets it.....while the rest of the world holds its breath

    But the settler expansion is long gone no? Didnt Israel empty its Gaza settlements?
    Wasnt that part of the "peace process"?
    What was it specifically that these Lebanese guys wanted? Is crossing the border into Israel and killing/kidnapping soldiers part of some other peace plan?
    Was digging a tunnel for months from Gaza another peaceful move?

    If its a tit for tat thing then what specifically prompted these actions?

    I dont think there was any Israli provocation beyond them occupying space these terrorists are convinced is theirs. What diplomacy is going to change what these people think "their" religion says to do....which seems to be ...kill Jews.

  11. #41
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    Re: Israel gets it.....while the rest of the world holds its breath

    Its Hezzbollah not the Lebanese and yes the distinction matters in this case.

    For Hezzbollah and Hamas its not about peace, but trying to force Arab states into fighting Israel by provoking Israel into attacking Arab states rather then Hamas / Hezzbollah it self.

    Because of the infighting in most of the Arab states, the states can't afford to go head to head with either organization. ( Theres also the fear that Israel under the auspice of its own security would intervene like the 1982 Israeli intervention in Lebanon.)

    The Israeli's carried out a number of assassinations during the ceasefires, and not all of them were in response to militant attacks. There is also the on going wall saga which is a rather thorny issue as it involves building on terrority tentively granted to the Palestinians.

    The other pressing issue is the refuge camps in other countries like Lebanon where they've been waiting for a resolution to this mess for over three decades.

  12. #42
    Joined
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    MS,LA,GA,& AR
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    4,439

    Re: Israel gets it.....while the rest of the world holds its breath

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan
    The problem with Islam is it has no central authority, it has religious scholars.
    Because there is no central authority, it allows scholars a large degree of latitude and its very hard to prevent a scholar from preaching his version of the Islamic traditions.
    .
    Islam has other issues which dovetail in to what you've said....The Koran lacks chronological assembly order (unlike the Bible). It is written in such a way that the shortest chapters come first and then they get progressively longer. This lack of chronological order destroys the sense of his evolution of becoming progressively more and more militant in his (Muhammed) writings as he got older.

    When these modern day Imams drill these chapters and verses into the young minds full of mush - they tend to latch on to the more militant chapters which unfortunately appear way too early in the "teachings". Sadly, because these young minds learn chapters and verses basically by rote - they fail to grasp the inner meanings and are more likely to latch on to the literal interpretations. The more violent ones.

    Most importantly, however, because of the corrupted chronological order of the chapters - young minds fail to see the big picture of Muhammed's writings as they evolved from sensible (the side that Bush refers to as Peace Loving)...... to a more extreme, radical position in his final days (the side most of Western civilzation correctly recognizes as the leading faction of the religion now).

    You are entirely correct in your statement that there's no central authority! No one seems to have the balls to step up to the plate and get the bloody thing organized [so it could become legitimized in the eyes of a logical world].
    -TMack

    "Forgive everyone for everything"

  13. #43
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    Re: Israel gets it.....while the rest of the world holds its breath

    The bible's new testment has the same problem, as its commentary from multiple sources in the same period of time with at least a couple of parts from an undetermined period of time. ( Revelations may in fact pre-date Christ's teachings.)

    I've read the Koran, its just as militant as the bible. ( Heavier on the praise of god.)

    As for Militant versions of Islam, theres less of the Koran and more modern religious teaching and thats where the problem comes in.

    The non-centralized form is a result of a number of schism's that occured with the passing of Muhamad and the Shia/Sunni split being the chief one.

    Theres a difference between centralized authority and organization, in contrast centralized authority in Christianity has caused a number of problems in the past including schisms and abuses.

    We also don't get a good view of Islam in day to day to make an accurate comparison, much like the average muslim doesn't get to see westerners in a day to day setting either.

  14. #44
    Joined
    Nov 2001
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    8,473

    Re: Israel gets it.....while the rest of the world holds its breath

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan
    ( As a historical note, the historical holdings of the Jewish state was the inland section of current Israel and they never had the sea side area.)
    What period in time was there a Jewish state that did not border the mediterranean sea ?
    Perhaps you can come up with a link/map ???

  15. #45
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    5,051

    Re: Israel gets it.....while the rest of the world holds its breath

    Here's a map of the Early boundaries.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...heba-Judea.png

    The red part.

    The pink part were areas occupied by Israelites, but not directly part of there holdings.

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