Iraq in flux

[AMDScooter]

I cannot stay OT?? Who was making references to Katrina in this very thread??

Isn't it funny how our leaders feign the same sort of ignorance with Iraq as they did with the New Orleans levees? "I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees."

Why it was the OP...!! I don't see you jumping in his junk about it. Why no cries for JC STAY ON TOPIC ORANG!!??? Love your feigned/selective frustration OTOC.

The replies were "supposedly" about people in the area or so called "experts" who opposed or made dire predictions about the war. Not to be mistaken with every other thread where a disgruntled Liberal with an axe to grind against the administration focuses on every negative aspect of Iraq. How about you we inject what the Kurdish "experts" felt about the invasion before it happened.... they are part of Iraq also. Oh check that, no doom and gloom to be found there... so their opinion does not matter. Just FYI.. things are working out pretty damn well for them.

Same scenario, different location. That so hard to comprehend? Let's take another angle. Site one example with any situation of significance where there have not been arguments both for and against. That you now come back as if it's a "revelation" some opposed the war is freaking laughable. But if it makes you feel better, thanks for making it an issue to point out the blatantly obvious.

[otoc]

I cannot stay OT?? Who was making references to Katrina in this very thread??



Why it was the OP...!! I don't see you jumping in his junk about it. Why no cries for JC STAY ON TOPIC ORANG!!??? Love your feigned/selective frustration OTOC.

The replies were "supposedly" about people in the area or so called "experts" who opposed or made dire predictions about the war. Not to be mistaken with every other thread where a disgruntled Liberal with an axe to grind against the administration focuses on every negative aspect of Iraq. How about you we inject what the Kurdish "experts" felt about the invasion before it happened.... they are part of Iraq also. Oh check that, no doom and gloom to be found there... so their opinion does not matter. Just FYI.. things are working out pretty damn well for them.

Same scenario, different location. That so hard to comprehend? Let's take another angle. Site one example with any situation of significance where there have not been arguments both for and against. That you now come back as if it's a "revelation" some opposed the war is freaking laughable. But if it makes you feel better, thanks for making it an issue to point out the blatantly obvious.

lol, if you had an issue with O-tang, then bring it up with him. I saw no mention of Katrina in your post, just a diversion to a new battle front by an ally. Katrina was used as an analogy for how our government ignores the past and allows a catastrophy to happen. I'm surprised you didn't get that one, but Israel attacking is hardly the same thing and has a thread of it's own.

Now what I don't find hard to see is that with time we have seen an erosion of a theater. That was the OP position, to use voices from that time that did not see eye to eye with the unilateral invasion. I backed that up with Powell. I also shared that opinion. It was utopian.

What's blatently obvious to me is that you whine about the "liberals" in your partisan way without seeing the reality that there are also moderates and conservatives pointing out the reality of the current situation after all these years. What is also obvious that while you whine about it, you don't contribute anything more than static to the conversation.

So what are the good points going on in Iraq right now? What's good for the Kurds in a way that is is best for the country as a whole?

And beware scooter, my frustration with you is not feigned.

The reality to me is that after Bush announced troop withdrawals, leaves were canceled. We are even shipping over more of our troops.

No oil is flowing in spite of the predictions from the administration. We taxpayers are taxpaying.

The infrastructure is still worse than before the invasion after over 3 years.

The government is having trouble holding unity.

Iraq is still a magnet for terrorists.

There is no Iraqi army or police to hand over the control of the country.

Help me here, scooter, here's your chance. How was Powell wrong that an insertion of democracy into the ME is not a utopian concept? Try to answer something directly for a change without the rhetoric.

[baghdad bob]

Civilian death rate in Iraq

seems some feel that this is all a ruse and isn't factual. i guess the violence is all on paper and only speculation.

US commander warns of Iraqi civil war

The most senior US military commander in the Middle East today told senators that "Iraq could move toward civil war" if the raging sectarian violence in Baghdad was not stopped.

His assessment came hours after it emerged that Britain's outgoing ambassador to Baghdad, William Patey, warned that civil war was the most likely outcome in Iraq.

"I believe that the sectarian violence is probably as bad as I have seen it," General John Abizaid, the commander of US central command, told the Senate armed services committee.

He said the top priority in the Iraq war was to secure the capital, where factional violence has surged in recent weeks despite efforts by the new Iraqi government to stop the fighting.

A similar remark was offered by General Peter Pace, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, who told the panel: "We do have the possibility of that devolving into civil war."

bb

[AMDScooter]

lol, if you had an issue with O-tang, then bring it up with him. I saw no mention of Katrina in your post, just a diversion to a new battle front by an ally. Katrina was used as an analogy for how our government ignores the past and allows a catastrophy to happen. I'm surprised you didn't get that one, but Israel attacking is hardly the same thing and has a thread of it's own.

Oh... so only when the OP uses an analogy off the MT do you get it, check.

Now what I don't find hard to see is that with time we have seen an erosion of a theater. That was the OP position, to use voices from that time that did not see eye to eye with the unilateral invasion. I backed that up with Powell. I also shared that opinion. It was utopian.

What's blatently obvious to me is that you whine about the "liberals" in your partisan way without seeing the reality that there are also moderates and conservatives pointing out the reality of the current situation after all these years. What is also obvious that while you whine about it, you don't contribute anything more than static to the conversation.

I'm partisan? Pot meet kettle. Your views can in no way be seen by partisan right?? Well, according to you anyway. Who's whining? Better do a quick mirror check. We do not all share your "reality", get it? I am sure by your responses that any dissent barely makes it as "static". The point was that many predictions were made prior to the war.

So what are the good points going on in Iraq right now? What's good for the Kurds in a way that is is best for the country as a whole?

Never said that... but you might try looking at the whole picture instead of mongering on the every negative aspect once in a while. The MAJORITY of the provences are relatively peaceful.

And beware scooter, my frustration with you is not feigned.

Threats...? Lol... and the mice voted to bell the cat....

The reality to me is that after Bush announced troop withdrawals, leaves were canceled. We are even shipping over more of our troops.

He said that there would be a draw down... has been the plan all along. That we would adjust needs as we see fit, same plan.

No oil is flowing in spite of the predictions from the administration. We taxpayers are taxpaying.

Liar. 2.2 Million barrels a day last month.

Tracking Reconstruction and Security in Post-Saddam Iraq

The infrastructure is still worse than before the invasion after over 3 years.

Liar. Infrastructure is far BETTER than pre war Iraq in nearly every area including Eletricity, Water, Schools and Phone services.

Tracking Reconstruction and Security in Post-Saddam Iraq

The government is having trouble holding unity.

So does ours.

Iraq is still a magnet for terrorists.

85% of the attacks are in 4 of the 18 provinces. Again, you focus on the minority as long as the news suits your polotics.

There is no Iraqi army or police to hand over the control of the country.

Liar. 154,500 police/ 115,100 national guard and armed forces. We have already started to hand provinces over to 100% Iraq control.

Tracking Reconstruction and Security in Post-Saddam Iraq

Help me here, scooter, here's your chance. How was Powell wrong that an insertion of democracy into the ME is not a utopian concept? Try to answer something directly for a change without the rhetoric.

Where you seem too need the most help is telling the truth instead of posting up any partisan lies you feel necessary to support your doom and gloom predictions. I'm more than happy to help you in that area.

[Orangutan]

That's emphasising your point? Okey..? How vocal are "The experts in the region" when they are wrong?

Yes, it's emphasizing my point because you still refuse to admit how shitty the Iraq situation is. You maintain that the Near Eastern experts, the people who have spent their lives working on the region, are merely using 'hindsight". Man, I sure as hell want some of their 'hindsight' since they would have to have ••••••• time machines. You refuse to admit that the people who actually know about the region were admonishing the government (specifically your Republican administration) about this very ethnic and religious conflict. What did Bush and friends say? "We'll be welcomed as liberators." What did the experts say? "Ethnic and religious conflict will occur and cost thousands of lives and perhaps plunge the country into a civil war."

Gee, who was right?

"Gobs" of people in the region make predictions. Fortunately for us "Gobs" of people in the region do not make policy, our respective politicians do. There are "gobs" of people in Iran, Syria and Lebanon that think Israel will loose the current incursion. Should the Israel army lay down their arms and march post haste into the med until their yarmulkes float?

What are you talking about?

85% of the attacks are in 4 of the 18 provinces. Again, you focus on the minority as long as the news suits your polotics.

I wonder how much of the population is concentrated in those four provinces. And I suppose it doesn't matter to you that the capital city is the scene of much of the violence.

So does ours.

Really? I wasn't aware of the rampant car bombings, torture, and murder of different religious groups in the U.S.

Liar. 154,500 police/ 115,100 national guard and armed forces. We have already started to hand provinces over to 100% Iraq control.

Yeah, because that's enough of a number. Who wants to talk about the quality of those numbers? I'm betting it's not Scooter.

[AMDScooter]

Yes, it's emphasizing my point because you still refuse to admit how shitty the Iraq situation is. You maintain that the Near Eastern experts, the people who have spent their lives working on the region, are merely using 'hindsight". Man, I sure as hell want some of their 'hindsight' since they would have to have ••••••• time machines. You refuse to admit that the people who actually know about the region were admonishing the government (specifically your Republican administration) about this very ethnic and religious conflict. What did Bush and friends say? "We'll be welcomed as liberators." What did the experts say? "Ethnic and religious conflict will occur and cost thousands of lives and perhaps plunge the country into a civil war."

Gee, who was right?

Or maybe it's not as sh*tty as some would have us believe throughout the entire country. There are hot spots... Baghdad is one of them. The terrorists pretty much follow the media, maximum impact. NO mystery there. But the MAJORITY of the country lives in relative peace. How hard a concept is that to follow?

What are you talking about?

Predictions.

I wonder how much of the population is concentrated in those four provinces. And I suppose it doesn't matter to you that the capital city is the scene of much of the violence.

Read the link. Half the population(12 provinces) live in areas that experience 6% of all attacks. See above reply re: terrorists follow the media. How much reporting is done outside the green belt?

Really? I wasn't aware of the rampant car bombings, torture, and murder of different religious groups in the U.S.

The question was unity.

Yeah, because that's enough of a number. Who wants to talk about the quality of those numbers? I'm betting it's not Scooter.

Ya... because hundreds of thousands of trained army and police is not a far cry from claims "There is no Iraqi army or police to hand over the control of the country." right? By all means lets talk about their quality. Especially of those who have taken over FULLL control of their provinces. I hardly think they qualify as rabble.

[Poci]

But the MAJORITY of the country lives in relative peace.

LOL I love these forums,especially you bushy supporters.LMAO majority lives in peace.

[AMDScooter]

LOL I love these forums,especially you bushy supporters.LMAO majority lives in peace.

LOL.. I back up my claims. You have anything to offer up other than opinion?

[baghdad bob]

we've been hearing numbers from the administration and it's defenders since the war began. trained and capable, prewar levels versus ....., has been a game of words.

i won't go back to the the beginning but how about security forces in february 24, 2006.

Pentagon: Iraqi troops downgraded

[QUOTE]The only Iraqi battalion capable of fighting without U.S. support has been downgraded to a level requiring them to fight with American troops backing them up, the Pentagon said Friday./QUOTE]

here's a good one from a couple of days ago. catch 22 i quess! cost too much? and yes reference to that civil war thing again.

In Move to Equip Iraqi Force, Questions Linger

Appearing with Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Malaki earlier this week, President Bush vowed to provide more equipment to Iraq's security forces. There are no specifics yet, but defense analysts say the forces are woefully under-equipped. Aside from concerns that the United States could be equipping a civil war, the cost is substantial.

Retired Army Gen. Barry McCaffrey says the Iraqis need about 2,000 armored Humvees, 2,000 M-113 armored vehicles, 120 Blackhawk transport vehicles, and 24 C-130 transport planes. McCaffrey says the cost -- an estimated $5 billion -- has both Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and the Office of Management and Budget concerned.

July 14, 2006
Province security is turned over to Iraqi forces

BAGHDAD, Iraq -- Iraqi forces for the first time took over security responsibility for an entire province Thursday, a milestone in the plan to transfer control of the entire country by the end of next year.

British Maj. Gen. John Cooper signed the document turning over responsibility for Muthanna province, a sparsely populated Shi'ite province that had been under British and Australian control.

"It is a great national day that will be registered in the history of Iraq," Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki said in a ceremony in the provincial capital of Samawah. "This step will bring happiness to all Iraqis."

The strategy of transferring all 18 provinces to Iraqi control depends on the capability of Iraq's newly trained police and army to maintain order.

During the handover ceremony, al-Maliki warned that insurgents were bent on upsetting the process and destroying Iraq's national unity.

"They will spare no effort to destroy this step and ensure that no further steps are taken," al-Maliki said. "But, with solidarity and patience, you will cut off the hands that want to sabotage this region."

Only about 700 British and Australian troops were stationed in Muthanna, along with about 600 Japanese soldiers on a humanitarian mission. The Japanese troops are in the process of leaving the country, while the British and Australians will move elsewhere in southern Iraq.

Coalition forces are expected to hand over responsibility soon in other quiet southern provinces. If all goes well, the U.S.-led coalition plans to transfer responsibility for the 17 other provinces by the end of next year. U.S. and other international troops would then let the Iraqis run security while staying in reserve in case of a crisis. That would be followed by a third stage in which U.S. troops would leave Iraq.

U.S. Hopes of Cutting Iraq Troop Levels Dim

"It is time to focus, it is time to make Baghdad the main effort," Chiarelli said. "This country is Baghdad-centric. I still believe if you can do things right in Baghdad it will have a tremendous secondary effect all over those areas we are having problems in now."

services: how the game is played!

Rice grilled over Iraq rebuilding pace, costs

Dr Rice, who had told the committee more Iraqis had access to sewerage and water services than before, argued that what the United States had improved was "capacity" and the United States had made a difference.

"I think this may be an issue of whether we are talking about delivery or capacity. We have increased the capacity for clean water for several million Iraqis," she said.

What mattered to Iraqis, Senator Conrad said, was not the potential to get water and electricity but to actually get it.

http://www.brookings.edu/fp/saban/iraq/index.pdf










bb

[Poci]

LOL.. I back up my claims. You have anything to offer up other than opinion?

Yeah you sure back up your claims,all those numbers and stats you post....
I dont even have to read them I just turn on the news and I see whats going on in Iraq.
And if you honestly beleive that theres only chaos in the "hotspots" and that the rest of the country lives in relative peace then you need to swim out of denile river

[bk94si]

Yeah you sure back up your claims,all those numbers and stats you post....
I dont even have to read them I just turn on the news and I see whats going on in Iraq.
And if you honestly beleive that theres only chaos in the "hotspots" and that the rest of the country lives in relative peace then you need to swim out of denile river

Do you honestly think that what you see on the news is representative of the whole country? What must you think of the US of A? If you look at the news it looks worse than Iraq.

[Poci]

Wow Im not even gonna bother,its no use.
If you think the US is worst then Iraq then be my guest and go live in the newly freed Iraq lets see how long you last....

[bk94si]

Wow Im not even gonna bother,its no use.
If you think the US is worst then Iraq then be my guest and go live in the newly freed Iraq lets see how long you last....

I think you need to re-read what I posted. Maybe when you haven't done X.

[Snowball 2]

OK so let's focus back on reality. Iraq will most likely be plunging into a civil war if it hasn't already had a good start. So say the administrators we have working there and also the heaps of attacks happening every day that claim dozens of lives. That much cannot be disputed.

And as far as our discussion here I recall stating as much back before we invaded and I even dug up an old post with someone who understood the situation as well.

All of the above would occur. If the US completely pulled out of Iraq, it would probably be split into three separate states. Kurdistan in the north, and the rest would be dividied among the sunni and shiites. These groups do not live together without the threat of of the sword. History has proved this to be true.

http://forums.pcper.com/showpost.php...3&postcount=35

This has definitely been discussed before and it's not any new revelation by experts. I also found alot more comments like ALB's but I didn't feel the need to post them all. I have would rather this situation not be what it is now but there's really no use trying to play it up as some isolated incidents. You can't slap lipstick on a pig.



Iraq is in alot of trouble.

[Orangutan]

More good news concerning the land between the rivers:

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsar...News-newsOne-3

CAMP PENDLETON, California (Reuters) - Six U.S. Marines were charged with assault late on Thursday in connection with suspected assaults on several Iraqi civilians in Hamdania, days before the alleged kidnapping and murder of an Iraqi civilian there.