Iraq in flux

[tucker]

^^ otoc, I’m not advocating cut & paste/run but I think its kind of important to know if the cost of staying is justified by the potential disaster if we leave.

To me if it comes to a point where we don’t have the support of the Iraqi Government and the sectarian violence continues as well as the terrorist attacks the mission becomes very, very hard to accomplish if not impossible.

Looking at the mess in that region right now I wouldn’t be sending ground troops I would be sending cruise missiles and fixed winged aircraft armed with tactical nuclear weapons.

I honestly believe one day it will come to just that. ^^^

Pretty crazy stuff, eh?

[jimzinsocal]

^^Agree. Its gotta be how do we fix/adjust...not who do we punish or blame.

Personally? Id like to get a handle on the extent of Iranain involvement.

[otoc]

^^ otoc, I’m not advocating cut & paste/run but I think its kind of important to know if the cost of staying is justified by the potential disaster if we leave.

To me if it comes to a point where we don’t have the support of the Iraqi Government and the sectarian violence continues as well as the terrorist attacks the mission becomes very, very hard to accomplish if not impossible.

Looking at the mess in that region right now I wouldn’t be sending ground troops I would be sending cruise missiles and fixed winged aircraft armed with tactical nuclear weapons.

I honestly believe one day it will come to just that. ^^^

Pretty crazy stuff, eh?

I know you're not advocating cut and run. I'm sorry, my comment was towards those who are in their response to the current situation.

There seems to be 2 sides outspoken during this time of polarization.

Those who look to defend the administration and those who say it was a mistake and it's time to set an exit schedule. I'm not saying you are part of either, that's just an impression I have in general terms.

It's funny, when I come here and poke criticism at the administration regarding how we got there in the terms of retrospect, some get defensive and throw out the labels that I am liberal because I speak out. Again I'm not speaking in terms of any exchanges you and I have had: just general and without naming scooterish or andrewish names.

I take exception to 2 current schools of thought.

To the blind defenders of the administration, I feel we must perform an autopsy to prevent this from happening again. Clearly mistakes were made and to date no one has fallen on a sword.

For the US to regain accountability, we must make ourselves accountable and prevent something like this from happening again.

As far as the current situation we must build that country from the ground up. Restore power, restore water, get the youth in schools, get the people working and get the oil flowing. Then the exit can be made. I don't hear that from the exit strategy voices. If the people are happy they will fight to keep that going and kick out the foreigners.

To your comment about cruise missiles in the region. Our involvement in the region has had a destabilizing force in many ways. We must again be accountable. We must force Israel to put aside weapons while forcing the world to get involved to enforce the peace. If we allow Israel to be their own protector it will continue to be a Muslim/Jew thing. If we continue to be weak in this matter and unresponsive to the issues of both sides it will continue to be a Christian/Muslim thing.

I remember during Vietnam many theories were thrown around by both sides. In the end, after we left, things stabilized to the point where Vietnam is this year's investment place.

Time has a way of making people do what is right if we have the patience to not muck around with theories. That's why I am in agreement with Powell that the original move into the region was Utopian in nature.

[tucker]

^^^ Your strong suit is debating mine is not. I’ve said what I have to say on this subject so I’ll move on to something else.

Beside that my carpals hurts like the devil today and my fingers feel like they have ED.

[Orangutan]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...raq.main/index. tml

Marines: Green door unravels Jill Carroll's kidnap trail
Two missing after helicopter crash; violence claims 34 lives


Wednesday, August 9, 2006; Posted: 1:08 p.m. EDT (17:08 GMT)

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- One glance at an unusual door to a house west of Falluja launched U.S. troops on a hunt that led to the capture of four men suspected of kidnapping Jill Carroll, the U.S. military said on Wednesday.

A Marine lieutenant thought he recognized a small structure on the door and the gate from intelligence reports about the U.S. journalist's 82-day abduction, spokesman Maj. Gen. William Caldwell said.

"Troops on the ground, young Marines and sailors, paid attention to what may have been considered minor details at the time," he told a news conference in Baghdad.

The homeowner let the Marine and his team from the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force into the building where they found a specific bookcase that led them to believe they had found where Carroll was held immediately before she was freed, Caldwell said. (Watch video of the house where Jill Carroll was allegedly held -- 2:04)

"The young Marine ... continued to follow up on what he remembered from the reports and [was] able to specifically identify some features associated with that ...

"He determined that, in fact, he had probably found the house where kidnap victims may have been held, specifically in this case, Jill Carroll."

Marines arrested the homeowner in al-Habbaniya beginning a chain of events that took them to three more houses that may have been used as holding cells.

In one of the houses, Marines disarmed booby traps before rescuing two other hostages, Caldwell said.

They also saw more characteristics of the home that suggested Carroll had been held there.

Four suspected kidnappers were detained in the operations that spread from Falluja to Baghdad, Caldwell said.

Two others were also detained but were not thought connected to Carroll and were released.

The names of those arrested -- all at least a month ago -- are being withheld while officials decide whether they should be prosecuted.

"The hunt continues for anybody and anyone else that was involved not only in these kidnappings but those who ... spread terror in the lives of everyday Iraqi citizens," Caldwell added.

"What's important to remember is that this is just one small part of the ordeal of a number of kidnap victims."

Carroll was working as a freelancer for The Christian Science Monitor when she was kidnapped in a Sunni neighborhood of Baghdad on January 7. She appeared in insurgent videos on Arabic-language news networks and was threatened with death until her release on March 30.

The Boston-based newspaper's editor Richard Bergenheim said Carroll and her colleagues "are very grateful" for the government's efforts to secure her freedom.

"Like reporters everywhere, we are reassured to hear that several of those who held Jill have been apprehended," his statement read.

"The daily threat of kidnapping in Iraq remains acute for all. Everything possible needs to be done to relieve Iraqis and others of this scourge."

Jill Carroll's father, Jim, told CNN that the family is "happy to hear the news" and that Jill "is doing well, in Boston, working for the Christian Science Monitor and recuperating."

The newspaper will carry her story of the ordeal next week.

Two missing after helicopter crash

Two crew members are missing after a U.S. Army Black Hawk helicopter went down in Anbar province in Iraq on Tuesday, the U.S. military said.

The four remaining crew members have been found, along with the aircraft, and were in stable condition.

The UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter from 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing was on an "area familiarization flight" when it crashed, the U.S. military said Wednesday.

"We are using all the resources available to find our missing comrades," said Marine spokesman Maj. Riccoh Player.

The incident is not believed to be the result of an "enemy action," the military said.

News of the crash coincided with a new poll showing 60 percent of Americans oppose the war in Iraq and a majority of those surveyed expressing support for a timetable for the withdrawal of U.S. troops. (Details)

Violence riddles Iraq

A Katyusha rocket attack on a residential building in Baquba killed a woman and a child and wounded 16 others Tuesday night, a Diyala Joint Coordination Center official said. The attack also damaged a Shiite mosque and shops.

Earlier in the day, two people were killed in drive-by shootings in Baquba.

The mixed Sunni and Shiite city, about 40 miles north of Baghdad, has endured many attacks since the insurgency began more than three years ago.

The killings brought to at least 34 the number of dead across Iraq by bombings or shootings Tuesday. Most of the incidents occurred in volatile Baghdad, where police found 15 bullet-riddled corpses, most of them showing signs of torture. The style of slayings has become a signature of Sunni-Shiite sectarian vendetta killings. (Full story)

One step forward, one sprint back.

[AMDScooter]

No. You make the assertion, you have to back it up with evidence. Until you do, your claim is invalid. Either you provide the evidence or deal with being wrong.

I have on several occasions backed up my claims and shot others down with evidence in this very thread. Go back through the thread if you have any interest whatsoever.

So you are familiar with the quotation. Why spout off then if you knew what I was talking about?

To shut you and your continual negative spin up.

How clever.

Well Orang... when confronted with your scathing witticism about my "sarcasm meter missing batteries" comment I felt a need to oblige in kind.

I don't recall posting any actual 'good news' about Iraq. Hence the use of the phrase. You're just about the only person here crowing about the 'good' done in Iraq, when all we have is evidence to the contrary. If you are so right and there is so much 'good news' concerning Iraq, you should have little trouble finding and posting it here for us.

Exactly, as far as you are concerned there has not been a single instance of progress in Iraq. Hence the question of your objectivity. But as you say "ALL" the evidence is to the contrary. Or better put, all the evidence you care to look at or post up is too the contrary. I love people like you that deal in absolutes like ALL, that have 0 means to back up their claims. The fact that I can find progress and post it up means your claims that "ALL the evidence is to the contrary" are ALL bull puckey. I'll summize a few "minor" details for ya:

1) A freely elected government where a greater percentage of the population turned out to vote than did in the last US election DESPITE threats of violence.

2) As stated before, the Kurds are prospering. Not an insignifigant portion of the population.

3) Iraq units are stating to take 100% control over the provinces.

4) Electricity, water, schools and many other social services are operating well above pre-war levels.


This is ALL bad news right Orang??

[baghdad bob]

As far as the current situation we must build that country from the ground up. Restore power, restore water, get the youth in schools, get the people working and get the oil flowing. Then the exit can be made.

does that make me a "centrist"?






bb

[Soundforbjt]

4) Electricity, water, schools and many other social services are operating well above pre-war levels.

I'd like a link for this, Everything I've read says they are below pre-war levels.

[Orangutan]

I have on several occasions backed up my claims and shot others down with evidence in this very thread. Go back through the thread if you have any interest whatsoever.

I've been paying attention to the thread, but I've yet to see you post all this 'wonderful news' about Iraq. There's just too much to fit in here, right?

To shut you and your continual negative spin up.

Ah, right, so you don't actually know what I was saying.

Well Orang... when confronted with your scathing witticism about my "sarcasm meter missing batteries" comment I felt a need to oblige in kind.

Hah.

Exactly, as far as you are concerned there has not been a single instance of progress in Iraq.

No, I maintain that what little good has been done is not worth all the bad that continues to be done. You cannot point to a few shreds of good and claim they justify all the bad.

Hence the question of your objectivity.

Where did I claim to be objective?

But as you say "ALL" the evidence is to the contrary.

Actually I said everything that has been posted here.

Or better put, all the evidence you care to look at or post up is too the contrary.

I read the news and post what I see here. I shouldn't have to go digging through Google archives in order to find a couple tidbits of 'good news' concerning Iraq. After all, you maintain that there's a whole lot of it coming from there.

I love people like you that deal in absolutes like ALL, that have 0 means to back up their claims.

Me? I deal in absolutes? Since when? I can't count how many times I've said that the world is not black and white, that absolutes are incorrect and damaging. But, I suppose it doesn't matter much since your argument is invalid: I didn't claim that "all" out of Iraq is bad. I said:

You're just about the only person here crowing about the 'good' done in Iraq, when all we have is evidence to the contrary.

The fact that I can find progress and post it up means your claims that "ALL the evidence is to the contrary" are ALL bull puckey.

Man, you really grab hold of a fallacy and run with it, don't you?

I'll summize a few "minor" details for ya:

1) A freely elected government where a greater percentage of the population turned out to vote than did in the last US election DESPITE threats of violence.

A freely elected government that cannot secure its own capital, much less its country. A government with a prime minister who is starting to oppose the U.S. and side with his religious sect. Ok, so they had elections. Has they really provided them with anything?

2) As stated before, the Kurds are prospering. Not an insignifigant portion of the population.

They were doing so before, too. And, in fact, I talked about the Kurds.

3) Iraq units are stating to take 100% control over the provinces.

Baghdad Bob talked about that claim earlier.

http://forums.pcper.com/showpost.php...1&postcount=24

4) Electricity, water, schools and many other social services are operating well above pre-war levels.

And that one, as well.

This is ALL bad news right Orang??

No, but all of the news comes with qualifiers. I don't see daily good news coming from Iraq, do you? I see lots of daily bad news, lots of it. And you know what? Some of it comes from the people in charge. That makes me pay attention.

[Bryan]

The Kurds aren't free from the problems occuring in other areas, there having problems with other ethnic groups in their area. ( Some cases of kicking people out of their homes for instance.)

The area has also been used by some of the Kurdish extremists to launch attacks against Turkey.

3) Iraq units are stating to take 100% control over the provinces.

Discounted by the government of Iraq requesting the US maintain troop levels and use US troops actively in maintaining security.

The Iraqi government dosen't even trust its own military and security forces.

4) Electricity, water, schools and many other social services are operating well above pre-war levels.

Which is being targeted by various groups and disrupted.

Which again forces the deployment of US troops to provide security.

[jimzinsocal]

I agree with your later points. Talk about a hideous catch 22.

I cant help but wonder about the Iran involvement [pushing Shia factions]

[AMDScooter]

I've been paying attention to the thread, but I've yet to see you post all this 'wonderful news' about Iraq. There's just too much to fit in here, right?

There is more than enough, your "attention" span seems to stop at bombs and burning buildings.

Ah, right, so you don't actually know what I was saying.

I think you do not have any idea what you are "actually" saying.

No, I maintain that what little good has been done is not worth all the bad that continues to be done. You cannot point to a few shreds of good and claim they justify all the bad.

No, this is what Orang maintains:

Yes, it's emphasizing my point because you still refuse to admit how shitty the Iraq situation is.

That you feel free elections, infrastructure being rebuilt and the FACT that the MAJORITY of Iraq outside of the green zone lives in relative peace is "little good" or are mere "shreds" of proof of progress underscores your obvious "misguided, disengenious" posts. I took you up on those points earlier in this thread as you tried to prop up OTOC's points... you seem to have a clear desire to not revisit those points for obvious reasons. They do not fit your "dire" predictions of the WHOLE situation.

Where did I claim to be objective?

Every post where you claim to merely be presenting the "facts". Unfourtunately all your "facts" do is highlight every "scrap" of negative news that comes from the area. If you were truly reporting the "facts" you would include points of progress also.

Actually I said everything that has been posted here.

No, this is what you said:

You're just about the only person here crowing about the 'good' done in Iraq, when all we have is evidence to the contrary.

So in the same sentence where you claim that "ALL" evidence you have is bad news you point out that I submit proof to the contrary.

I read the news and post what I see here. I shouldn't have to go digging through Google archives in order to find a couple tidbits of 'good news' concerning Iraq. After all, you maintain that there's a whole lot of it coming from there.

You read the news and post every negative aspect, then add lil snippits like

"One step forward, one sprint back."

to emphasize your "framing" of the situation. I did not have to "dig" at all. But I agree you will not find any positive news in the MSM or on the front page of the DU or K0z.

Me? I deal in absolutes? Since when? I can't count how many times I've said that the world is not black and white, that absolutes are incorrect and damaging. But, I suppose it doesn't matter much since your argument is invalid: I didn't claim that "all" out of Iraq is bad. I said:

Man, you really grab hold of a fallacy and run with it, don't you?

If you mean I point out the fallacy of your words.. then yes. By your "logic", stating:

"when all we have is evidence to the contrary."

is somehow different that claiming all the news is bad. Who is dealing in fallacy? Might wanna do a mirror check.

A freely elected government that cannot secure its own capital, much less its country. A government with a prime minister who is starting to oppose the U.S. and side with his religious sect. Ok, so they had elections. Has they really provided them with anything?

Yes... a freely elected government is a trivial item or minor detail according to Orang. Along with the fact the majority of the provinces are living in relative peace. That that majority of the attacks happen to be centered around the capitol where the terrorists can pander to reporters you take so much stock in is a shocking revelation to whom? Not I. Has it provided them with anything? I guess depends on whether or not you feel the right to choose is important. I think it is. I guess you do not.

They were doing so before, too. And, in fact, I talked about the Kurds.

The Kurds were prospering before we invaded? Lol... And Jim brought the Kurds into the conversation.... not you. You merely replied to his reminder to you that not all of Iraq is the "mess" you claim it to be.

Baghdad Bob talked about that claim earlier.

http://forums.pcper.com/showpost.php...1&postcount=24

And that one, as well.

No, but all of the news comes with qualifiers. I don't see daily good news coming from Iraq, do you? I see lots of daily bad news, lots of it. And you know what? Some of it comes from the people in charge. That makes me pay attention.

Cut-and-paste-bob has been on my ignore list for some time now. You see what you want to see. Ultimately from the sum of your posts it's clear to many your desire is for us to ultimately fail in Iraq. Though you will ultimately deny this, the theme of your posts says otherwise.

[Bryan]

I cant help but wonder about the Iran involvement [pushing Shia factions]

Thats an interesting topic, I've been hearing about a possible rift between Iran and Hezbollah. ( Not enough to break the mutual support.)

Which may be behind this latest round of muscle flexing. ( Seems Iran wants to replace the current head of Hezbollah as he's not with the program.)

This also might be behind some of the Hezbollah activity in Iraq as well.

[jimzinsocal]

^^Im reading some stuff as well. As we go foward Im seeing how all of it is connected.
And I dont discount the possibility for one minute that the Lebanon deal is a way to relieve Iraq pressure points.

[AMDScooter]

Bad news.... ??

Iraqi divisions halfway there

Wednesday, 09 August 2006

Story by Spc. Rick Rzepka
124th Mobile Public Affairs Detachment

TIKRIT - The Iraqi army took an important step forward Tuesday by marking the halfway point for division headquarters to take the lead for security operations throughout the country.

The 4th Iraqi Army Division assumed control of their area of responsibility, encompassing regions spanning three of Iraq’s northern provinces, Salahad Din , As Sulaymaniyah and At-Ta’mim provinces.

Its area of responsibility includes the cities of Tikrit, Kirkuk, Bayji and Samarra, as well as the major oil and electrical infrastructure in northern Iraq.

The 4th IA Division is the fifth of 10 Iraqi Army divisions to take control over Iraqi units in their assigned regions. In addition, there have been 25 brigades and 85 battalions assuming operational command and control to date.

"Today is a day of dignity for us Iraqis who are loyal to the motherland," said Lt. Gen. Abdul-Aziz Abdel-Rahman al-Mufti, commander of the 4th Iraqi Army Division. "We will not stop or look back," he said.

Two years ago, armed only with a briefcase and a few names, Aziz was asked to build a division from scratch. Today he stood before the Iraqi Minister of Defense Abdul Qadir Mohammed Jasim and dozens of his subordinate officers to claim the area that he and his men will fight for.

Maj. Gen. Thomas Turner, Commander of the 101st Airborne Division speaks during the ceremony with a photo of Iraqi President President Jalal Talabani behind him. Department of Defense photo by Staff Sgt. Russell Lee Klika.
Maj. Gen. Thomas Turner, Commander of the 101st Airborne Division speaks during the ceremony with a photo of Iraqi President President Jalal Talabani behind him. Department of Defense photo by Staff Sgt. Russell Lee Klika.
"We had to search for many officers and Soldiers," he said. "It was a very difficult job, but thanks to God we have succeeded."

Aziz has continued to lead the way for the 4th IA Division despite 19 assassination attempts on his life.

"We keep going forward to build a new Iraq. Our motto is, and always will be: Unity is power. Unity for all denominations," he said.

There are more than 275,000 Iraqi security personnel who are tasked with the job of keeping Iraq's people safe, with about 115,000 of those in Iraq’s military and the remainder in it’s police forces.

"Gen. Aziz's Soldiers have been working hard to take control of this large, complex area and that day has come," said Maj. Gen. Thomas R. Turner, commanding general of the 101st Airborne Division. "They have set the example."

While the Iraqi Army has taken the lead in security, help will still remain available to them, said Gen. George W. Casey Jr. , commanding general of Multi-National Force - Iraq. "This is a step and we will help them become independent. We are going to do what it takes."

That help will come in the form of intelligence capabilities, logistics and medical care. "These things take a little longer to understand," said Casey.

“I think what you saw here today was a great statement in progress and unity in Iraq,” said Casey. “They (Iraqis) keep taking small steps and getting better and better everyday.”

"We will need the intelligence, logistical and medical support," said Iraq's national security advisor Dr. Mouwafak al-Rubaie. "Three years ago we had absolutely nothing and now we have 10 divisions. Today 60 percent of operations here are led, conducted, monitored and accessed by Iraqis."

This significant step in self reliance is due to the stable command and control structure headed by a democratically elected government, said al-Rubaie. "Very soon, we will have command and control of Baghdad. Neighborhood by neighborhood, authority is being handed back to the Iraqis."

Rubaie also discussed a meeting that was held recently in which the heads of the sectarian militias gathered to discuss plans for peace.

"They have sworn on the Koran that they will stop killing each other. Arabs killing Arabs will not continue in this country."

“I think this is a good day for Iraq,” said U.S. Ambassador to Iraq Zalmay Khalilzad. “The people of Iraq are starting to get organized so they can take on more responsibility for their own country.”

Also attending the ceremony was Iraqi Minister of Defense Gen. Abdul Quder Muhammed, the governors of Salah Ad Din, Sulaymaniyah and Kirkuk provinces; and a host of local leaders.

The 4th IA Division is the second division in Task Force Band of Brothers area of operations to make this transition.

The 5th IA Division assumed the lead for security operations in Diyala province in July. Throughout northern Iraq, 33 battalions, nine brigades and two divisions have demonstrated their ability to operate independently and now lead the fight against terrorists and anti-Iraqi forces.