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  1. #16
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    Re: ACLU defends terror supporters' right to U.S. access

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter View Post
    If you truly seek information(which I doubt), do a bit of research on your own.. ther is plenty of information out there.
    Typical Scooter. You make vocal claims (in this case, that he is a terrorism supporter), then when asked for evidence that you aren't bulls------- everyone, you tell others to get their own research to back up your claim for you.

    Generally speaking Scooter, to win an argument you must support your own assertions with evidence. Maybe that should be part of the sticky for this forum?


    For the record, I'm with Orang and BD24 on this one.

  2. #17
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    Re: ACLU defends terror supporters' right to U.S. access

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter View Post
    If you truly seek information(which I doubt), do a bit of research on your own.. ther is plenty of information out there.
    Actually, I read the Wiki article. If the evidence was as obvious as you say it is, you would have posted it.
    The man is actually lecturing to bridge the Islamic culture with the Western culture. Something long overdue. You cannot want to destroy and bridge a culture at the same time.
    I asked you to bring proof of the accusation, that's how it works. So my question still stands.

    http://www.time.com/time/innovators/...e_ramadan.html


    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter View Post
    Nice spin... "humanitarian organizations"...lol, you could work for the ACLU and CAIR. They were financial fronts for Hamas, does the actual dollar amount make a difference? Ok... so he only gave enough for the down payment on a roadside bomb... I guess that makes it ok.
    There is not a single indication that he gave any of it to Hamas. He gave to an organization, and a very small amount I might add, which has once contributed to Hamas yes. Does it make him a supporter of terrorism? Not at all. You are the one that is spinning this. You just made up roadside bombs and the like. It is also your government claiming the ties to terrorist organizations. No one else. Fishy...
    He also donated the money before the organisation was blacklisted by your government. Namely from 1998 till 2002. The organization was blacklisted in 2003. How was he supposed to know if your government didn't know themselves?
    He also states that "terrorism is never justifiable" and condemns it.
    The Saudi Bin Laden familiy is always welcome in the US btw. And they are directly related to the #1 Al Qaeda man. Obviously "ties to terrorism" is just made up as reason for the revocation of the visa.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariq_R...isa_revocation

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter View Post
    Do you even know what is "ethnic origin" is? And by that standard can you explain the number of his "ethnicity" in the us if there were a systematic plot to keep them out? Your conspiracy theory is not passing the smell test.
    Conspiracy? not really. You are the one claiming the terrorist conspiracy. Not I. And yes I know what ethnic origin is. You're bringing up the systematic plot, not I. But because he has Egyptian roots, he is a Muslim and he opposes your foreign policy, those seem to be reasons to why he is kept out of the country.
    Last edited by Wolf2000me; 02-27-2007 at 06:44 AM.
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  3. #18
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    Re: ACLU defends terror supporters' right to U.S. access

    Obviously someone just wants to simply push the idea that all muslims are terrorists. Makes it easier for a weak mind to accept any abuses of e.g. human rights or the constitution.

  4. #19
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    Re: ACLU defends terror supporters' right to U.S. access

    Quote Originally Posted by Trekari View Post
    Typical Scooter. You make vocal claims (in this case, that he is a terrorism supporter), then when asked for evidence that you aren't bulls------- everyone, you tell others to get their own research to back up your claim for you.

    Generally speaking Scooter, to win an argument you must support your own assertions with evidence. Maybe that should be part of the sticky for this forum?


    For the record, I'm with Orang and BD24 on this one.
    Really Trek? No proof he is a terror supporter eh? Then perhaps you can tell me why he is being kept out of the country if there is indeed NO proof? My case is already made.. this guy is not getting back in no matter how hard the terrorist enablers at the ACLU scream.

    Make your case for his innocence... where is your proof?? Whats that??.... oh... you have no proof. To that end you have not offered one piece of data to refute any of what has been laid out against him. How typical of you. Once again we are to take Trek's opinion as fact while you accuse others of doing just that. Pointing you out as the hypocrite you are is getting old Trek... try a new tact.

    But lets pan the FACT the State Department itself say's this guy is a no-go. I see numerous sub links at each article quoted and linked. I suppose I asked for too much in expecting you actually do some reading for the "Proof" you keep requesting or that you actually offer up something to refute what is laid out in those links and articles. As usual, you come off accusing others of passing opinion as fact when in truth this is the core of every argument and retort you make on this forum...lol. Not that any of the proof listed matters anyway eh Trek... it does not share you OPINION, so it must not be true...
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  5. #20
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    Re: ACLU defends terror supporters' right to U.S. access

    Quote Originally Posted by Pehu View Post
    Obviously someone just wants to simply push the idea that all muslims are terrorists. Makes it easier for a weak mind to accept any abuses of e.g. human rights or the constitution.
    Obviously someone is willing to ignore terrorist connections because a particular religion is involved. Perhaps one weak minded accuser could explain how denying someone who is not a citizen of the US entry into this country is an affront on their human rights, and how the constitution applies to said non-citizen.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  6. #21
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    Re: ACLU defends terror supporters' right to U.S. access

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter View Post
    Then perhaps you can tell me why he is being kept out of the country if there is indeed NO proof? My case is already made..
    Nice logic there. ACLU says the government has no right to keep this person out of the country since there is no proof of him supporting terrorism and you take it as proof of him supporting terrorism because he is kept out of the country? Case made indeed...

  7. #22
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    Re: ACLU defends terror supporters' right to U.S. access

    1) It was Wolf2000me that asked you to provide evidence.

    2) Your evidence seems to be that the State Dept. said he's a terrorist supporter. That is known as 'argument from authority' and is a logical fallacy.

    3) If you cannot provide the evidence that Wolf2000me asked for, then do not take your frustration out on me.

    I think you need to re-read everything that you just wrote and compare it line by line to what my sole comment on this thread was. Your hatred of me currently has you making up statements and positions I haven't made.

    I shall assist you in this matter:

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter
    Really Trek? No proof he is a terror supporter eh? Then perhaps you can tell me why he is being kept out of the country if there is indeed NO proof? My case is already made.. this guy is not getting back in no matter how hard the terrorist enablers at the ACLU scream.
    I did not claim there was no proof. My exact words were "You make vocal claims (in this case, that he is a terrorism supporter), then when asked for evidence that you aren't bulls------- everyone, you tell others to get their own research to back up your claim for you." This is not a claim against the validity of your enthusiastic opinion. It is a comment on your typical behavior of refusing to provide evidence for your own arguments and instead asking others to gather it for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter
    Make your case for his innocence... where is your proof?? Whats that??.... oh... you have no proof. To that end you have not offered one piece of data to refute any of what has been laid out against him. How typical of you. Once again we are to take Trek's opinion as fact while you accuse others of doing just that. Pointing you out as the hypocrite you are is getting old Trek... try a new tact.
    Again, I entered the thread to comment on your pathetic lack of supporting evidence when asked by another member for it. I have offered no opinion that you are to take, "...as fact while you accuse others of doing just that." I said I stand by BD24 and Orangutan on this issue - nothing more and nothing less.

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter
    But lets pan the FACT the State Department itself say's this guy is a no-go.
    Here is the meat and potatoes of your argument. The 'State Deparment itself' says something, therefore Scooter believes it to be true. As mentioned above this is an "Argument from authority" fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter
    I see numerous sub links at each article quoted and linked. I suppose I asked for too much in expecting you actually do some reading for the "Proof" you keep requesting or that you actually offer up something to refute what is laid out in those links and articles.
    As mentioned earlier, I wasn't the one demanding proof. If you want something substantial to refute the articles you've linked, how about the fact that 50% of the 'experts' listed on terrorfinance.org work for or live in Israel? I'm sure Israeli citizens/employees have no personal grudge against Islam in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter
    As usual, you come off accusing others of passing opinion as fact when in truth this is the core of every argument and retort you make on this forum...lol. Not that any of the proof listed matters anyway eh Trek... it does not share you OPINION, so it must not be true...
    How I "come off" to you and what is actually written are two very different things. When you stop incorrectly associating comments of other members as my own comments then you can begin to ween yourself off this blinded-by-hatred idiocy that always clouds your mind whenever you reply to my posts.

  8. #23
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    Re: ACLU defends terror supporters' right to U.S. access

    Quote Originally Posted by Pehu View Post
    Nice logic there. ACLU says the government has no right to keep this person out of the country since there is no proof of him supporting terrorism and you take it as proof of him supporting terrorism because he is kept out of the country? Case made indeed...
    oh snap!

  9. #24
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    Re: ACLU defends terror supporters' right to U.S. access

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf2000me View Post
    Actually, I read the Wiki article. If the evidence was as obvious as you say it is, you would have posted it.
    The man is actually lecturing to bridge the Islamic culture with the Western culture. Something long overdue. You cannot want to destroy and bridge a culture at the same time.
    I asked you to bring proof of the accusation, that's how it works. So my question still stands.

    http://www.time.com/time/innovators/...e_ramadan.html




    There is not a single indication that he gave any of it to Hamas. He gave to an organization, and a very small amount I might add, which has once contributed to Hamas yes. Does it make him a supporter of terrorism? Not at all. You are the one that is spinning this. You just made up roadside bombs and the like. It is also your government claiming the ties to terrorist organizations. No one else. Fishy...
    He also donated the money before the organisation was blacklisted by your government. Namely from 1998 till 2002. The organization was blacklisted in 2003. How was he supposed to know if your government didn't know themselves?
    He also states that "terrorism is never justifiable" and condemns it.
    The Saudi Bin Laden familiy is always welcome in the US btw. And they are directly related to the #1 Al Qaeda man. Obviously "ties to terrorism" is just made up as reason for the revocation of the visa.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariq_R...isa_revocation



    Conspiracy? not really. You are the one claiming the terrorist conspiracy. Not I. And yes I know what ethnic origin is. You're bringing up the systematic plot, not I. But because he has Egyptian roots, he is a Muslim and he opposes your foreign policy, those seem to be reasons to why he is kept out of the country.

    Conspiracy? not really. You are the one claiming the terrorist conspiracy. Not I. And yes I know what ethnic origin is. You're bringing up the systematic plot, not I. But because he has Egyptian roots, he is a Muslim and he opposes your foreign policy, those seem to be reasons to why he is kept out of the country.
    Sorry... you passed on the links I provided and went to Wikki instead? Lots of terrorism supporters CLAIM to be trying to be "uniters" or "building bridges". Basically will say anything to gain access to the US. His actions, activity and close ties to terrorists paint an entirely different story however. You seem focused on one claim in one link provided. There are several reasons why he might not be getting in.. these are just a few reasons publicly known. I'm sure the DHS and State dept. have much more information... and they are not compelled by law to lay out a case.

    Here is some more background:



    Tariq Ramadan: Terrorism connections cited for revoking slated Notre Dame professor's US visa - Muslims-CAIR& Chicago Tribune protest


    What's up? The DHS knows much more than I do, but it is not talking. A review of the press, however, gives an idea of what the problem is. Here are some reasons why Mr. Ramadan might have been kept out:

    * He has praised the brutal Islamist policies of the Sudanese politician Hassan Al-Turabi. Mr. Turabi in turn called Mr. Ramadan the "future of Islam."
    * Mr. Ramadan was banned from entering France in 1996 on suspicion of having links with an Algerian Islamist who had recently initiated a terrorist campaign in Paris.
    * Ahmed Brahim, an Algerian indicted for Al-Qaeda activities, had "routine contacts" with Mr. Ramadan, according to a Spanish judge (Baltasar Garzón) in 1999.
    * Djamel Beghal, leader of a group accused of planning to attack the American embassy in Paris, stated in his 2001 trial that he had studied with Mr. Ramadan.
    * Along with nearly all Islamists, Mr. Ramadan has denied that there is "any certain proof" that Bin Laden was behind 9/11.
    * He publicly refers to the Islamist atrocities of 9/11, Bali, and Madrid as "interventions," minimizing them to the point of near-endorsement.

    And here are other reasons, dug up by Jean-Charles Brisard, a former French intelligence officer doing work for some of the 9/11 families, as reported in Le Parisien:

    * Intelligence agencies suspect that Mr. Ramadan (along with his brother Hani) coordinated a meeting at the Hôtel Penta in Geneva for Ayman al-Zawahiri, deputy head of Al-Qaeda, and Omar Abdel Rahman, the blind sheikh, now in a Minnesota prison.
    * Mr. Ramadan's address appears in a register of Al Taqwa Bank, an organization the State Department accuses of supporting Islamist terrorism.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  10. #25
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    Re: ACLU defends terror supporters' right to U.S. access

    Quote Originally Posted by Pehu View Post
    Nice logic there. ACLU says the government has no right to keep this person out of the country since there is no proof of him supporting terrorism and you take it as proof of him supporting terrorism because he is kept out of the country? Case made indeed...
    Sorry.. the government is not obliged to coddle every request submitted by the moonbats running the ACLU. Just happens to be the law.... I know... minor details. Exceptions must be made because he is a member of the Religion of perpetual outrage eh? Indeed... my case is made. But aside from that .. I guess you are willing to ignore the mountain of evidence freely available outside the DHS.....

    Nice avoidance of my previous request to explain how denying someone who is not a citizen of the US entry into this country is an affront on their human rights, and how the constitution applies to said non-citizen.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  11. #26
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    Re: ACLU defends terror supporters' right to U.S. access

    <sarcasm-on> I agree with scooter that no organization should take advantage of the constitutional system we have in place to allow anyone the ability to defend themselves against rulings made by our government. I also agree that wiki is enough for me to decide if someone is guilty or innocent<sarcasm-off>

  12. #27
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    Re: ACLU defends terror supporters' right to U.S. access

    Quote Originally Posted by Trekari View Post
    1) It was Wolf2000me that asked you to provide evidence.
    Really??

    Quote Originally Posted by Trekari View Post
    Generally speaking Scooter, to win an argument you must support your own assertions with evidence. Maybe that should be part of the sticky for this forum?
    Sorry... what was that Trek?? I cannot hear you above you asking me to provide evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trekari View Post
    2) Your evidence seems to be that the State Dept. said he's a terrorist supporter. That is known as 'argument from authority' and is a logical fallacy.
    No... perhaps if you had done even a little diligence and read some of the links provided you would see that there is plenty more evidence. I stated that the fact he is being kept out by the HDS and State Dept. alone would be enough. Pleas frame your "logical fallacy" claims... well.. logically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trekari View Post
    3) If you cannot provide the evidence that Wolf2000me asked for, then do not take your frustration out on me.
    Much proof already provided... if you care not to read it.. not my issue. I'm not frustrated. This terrorist is being kept out and I'm happy as a bug in a rug. However, keeping him out seems to have you in a bit of a twist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trekari View Post
    I think you need to re-read everything that you just wrote and compare it line by line to what my sole comment on this thread was. Your hatred of me currently has you making up statements and positions I haven't made.
    I don't hate you Trek... perhaps that is just your feeling toward me being mirrored in your post. And as for those statements you claim to have never made... well... a quick scan up by anyone interested shows you might wanna stop making that claim sometime soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trekari View Post
    I shall assist you in this matter:
    OH BOY!

    Quote Originally Posted by Trekari View Post
    I did not claim there was no proof. My exact words were "You make vocal claims (in this case, that he is a terrorism supporter), then when asked for evidence that you aren't bulls------- everyone, you tell others to get their own research to back up your claim for you." This is not a claim against the validity of your enthusiastic opinion. It is a comment on your typical behavior of refusing to provide evidence for your own arguments and instead asking others to gather it for you.
    I had already provided "proof" or "evidence" as you like to call it now. My suggestion was if my "proof" or "evidence" was not valid enough I recommended others do a quick search on their own. There is already ample linkage provided.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trekari View Post
    Again, I entered the thread to comment on your pathetic lack of supporting evidence when asked by another member for it. I have offered no opinion that you are to take, "...as fact while you accuse others of doing just that." I said I stand by BD24 and Orangutan on this issue - nothing more and nothing less.
    You entered the thread and dismissed the evidence provided because it did not suit your sensibilities. Poor "pathetic" me. You sure have a lot to say for someone who claims to have said so little.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trekari View Post
    Here is the meat and potatoes of your argument. The 'State Deparment itself' says something, therefore Scooter believes it to be true. As mentioned above this is an "Argument from authority" fallacy.
    No.. that is the only point you feel you can argue... but it is hardly the "meat and potatoes" of my argument. Pick and choose what evidence you like.. then accuse others of "fallacies".... reoccurring theme.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trekari View Post
    As mentioned earlier, I wasn't the one demanding proof.
    Since you seem to wanna harp on this topic.. I feel obliged to respond in kind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trekari View Post
    Generally speaking Scooter, to win an argument you must support your own assertions with evidence. Maybe that should be part of the sticky for this forum?
    Sure looks to me like you are asking for evidence... perhaps you would like to comment on the "logical fallacy" of asking for evidence while claiming you are not asking for evidence.

    Money quote below...

    Quote Originally Posted by Trekari View Post
    If you want something substantial to refute the articles you've linked, how about the fact that 50% of the 'experts' listed on terrorfinance.org work for or live in Israel? I'm sure Israeli citizens/employees have no personal grudge against Islam in general.
    WHOA... you got me there... How could I possibly refute such a unimpeachable statement of fact as that? Shall I use some Trek boilerplate about logical fallacies?? Naw.. I'll just leave it up there as another fine example of Trek's hypocrisy..

    Seriously.... Thats your idea of "substantial" proof?? Your discrimination against people living in Israel(Joo's) is proof??? LOL. How about something a bit more tangible than the geographic location of the contributors to that list?? Like perhaps.... refuting the facts listed by terrorfinance.org?? Minor details..

    Oh I'm sorry... we are supposed to stick to "Trek's views" double standard.... Please carry on lecturing others about "logical fallacies"..... it still amuses me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trekari View Post
    How I "come off" to you and what is actually written are two very different things.
    Apparently not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trekari View Post
    When you stop incorrectly associating comments of other members as my own comments then you can begin to ween yourself off this blinded-by-hatred idiocy that always clouds your mind whenever you reply to my posts.
    Ahhh... your personal attacks warm me on a rainy day..

    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  13. #28
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    Re: ACLU defends terror supporters' right to U.S. access

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter View Post
    Nice avoidance of my previous request to explain how denying someone who is not a citizen of the US entry into this country is an affront on their human rights, and how the constitution applies to said non-citizen.
    You perhaps misread what I said, since I never claimed what you say.

  14. #29
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    Re: ACLU defends terror supporters' right to U.S. access

    Quote Originally Posted by Pehu View Post
    You perhaps misread what I said, since I never claimed what you say.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pehu View Post
    Obviously someone just wants to simply push the idea that all muslims are terrorists. Makes it easier for a weak mind to accept any abuses of e.g. human rights or the constitution.
    So you used examples of abuses to human rights and the constitution because you felt they were NOT appropriate or applicable to the issue at hand? Or were they simply meant to support your claim that this is simply a case of discrimination against a Muslim?
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  15. #30
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    Re: ACLU defends terror supporters' right to U.S. access

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter View Post
    So you used examples of abuses to human rights and the constitution because you felt they were NOT appropriate or applicable to the issue at hand? Or were they simply meant to support your claim that this is simply a case of discrimination against a Muslim?
    What I am saying is that you are preaching hate and fear basically just like the government has been doing to make it easier to trample on people's rights. This does apply straight to the issue at hand, since the real big issue here in the threads you've put up is not whether they actually are factual or not, but rather why you put them up in the first place.

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