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  1. #3871
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    Re: The Great Global Warming Thread (merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchcedar View Post
    That's a freaky picture. If it were of oil rigs, it would be famous.
    Yeah, it's great picture. This windsubsidyfarm is laid out in an 8 x 10 grid, so they'll pretty much always get in each other's way. It's only the world's 9th largest offshore windfarm too.

    The largest was opened last year off the east coast of England. That has 100 blenders which are even bigger than the ones in the photo. They have a 300 foot wingspan.


    BTW, if you see a turbine slowly revolving on a still day, it's using electricity from the grid (nuclear / coal) to do this. They need to be kept moving to avoid over-stressing the hub.
    Last edited by Enmore; 02-12-2011 at 07:47 PM. Reason: typo

  2. #3872
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    Re: The Great Global Warming Thread (merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by Enmore View Post

    BTW, if you see a turbine slowly revolving on a still day, it's using electricity from the grid (nuclear / coal) to do this. They need to be kept moving to avoid over-stressing the hub.
    Hah! I never knew that. From what I've read of wind power so far, it all seems like a lot of hot air to me. Another thing that's never mentioned with those big wind turbines is all the weekly maintenance that's needed to keep them running properly. I've also noticed every time I'm in the Palm Springs, CA area how many of the turbines aren't spinning at all, even on windy days. I guess they are down for maintenance?

    As for the picture you posted Enmore. I don't understand why they just don't stagger those windmills to avoid the problem of having to put them so far apart.
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

    Edmund Burke

    RIP PCPER TLR
    7-14-19

  3. #3873
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    Re: The Great Global Warming Thread (merged)

    Don't forget that the priority is farming taxpayer subsidies, not electricity generation.

    To try to reduce the wake effect, they space the turbines apart at a multiple of the blade diameter. The ones in the photo are spaced at 7x the blade diameter on both axis. (80 metre (262 ft) diameter blades = 560 metre (1,834 ft) spacing).

    That's a lot of space. This one covers 7.4 square miles.

    Splattered insects, birds, bats etc and sea salt on the blades significantly decreases their efficiency. In high winds they have to feather the blades to stop rotation in order to prevent damage.

    The vagaries of wind make it a complete nightmare to integrate with gas, coal and nuclear. Wind turbines can never replace them. Each turbine has to be backed up by conventional generation or you'll get brown and blackouts.

    Denmark, the poster boy of wind power can only get away with having so much by load balancing its national grid to that of Germany, Norway and Sweden. Despite this 'creative accounting', the Danes still haven't been able to shut down a single conventional plant & their electricity costs to consumers are the highest in Europe.

  4. #3874
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    Re: The Great Global Warming Thread (merged)

    Windmills = earth friendly...
    Manufacturing windmills = no so much...


    In China, the true cost of Britain's clean, green wind power experiment: Pollution on a disastrous scale

    This toxic lake poisons Chinese farmers, their children and their land. It is what's left behind after making the magnets for Britain's latest wind turbines... and, as a special Live investigation reveals, is merely one of a multitude of environmental sins committed in the name of our new green Jerusalem



    The lake of toxic waste at Baotou, China, which as been dumped by the rare earth processing plants in the background

    On the outskirts of one of China’s most polluted cities, an old farmer stares despairingly out across an immense lake of bubbling toxic waste covered in black dust. He remembers it as fields of wheat and corn.

    Yan Man Jia Hong is a dedicated Communist. At 74, he still believes in his revolutionary heroes, but he despises the young local officials and entrepreneurs who have let this happen.

    ‘Chairman Mao was a hero and saved us,’ he says. ‘But these people only care about money. They have destroyed our lives.’
    Vast fortunes are being amassed here in Inner Mongolia; the region has more than 90 per cent of the world’s legal reserves of rare earth metals, and specifically neodymium, the element needed to make the magnets in the most striking of green energy producers, wind turbines.

    Live has uncovered the distinctly dirty truth about the process used to extract neodymium: it has an appalling environmental impact that raises serious questions over the credibility of so-called green technology.

    The reality is that, as Britain flaunts its environmental credentials by speckling its coastlines and unspoiled moors and mountains with thousands of wind turbines, it is contributing to a vast man-made lake of poison in northern China. This is the deadly and sinister side of the massively profitable rare-earths industry that the ‘green’ companies profiting from the demand for wind turbines would prefer you knew nothing about.

    Hidden out of sight behind smoke-shrouded factory complexes in the city of Baotou, and patrolled by platoons of security guards, lies a five-mile wide ‘tailing’ lake. It has killed farmland for miles around, made thousands of people ill and put one of China’s key waterways in jeopardy.

    This vast, hissing cauldron of chemicals is the dumping ground for seven million tons a year of mined rare earth after it has been doused in acid and chemicals and processed through red-hot furnaces to extract its components.

    . . .
    Read the whole thing if you have a few minutes.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  5. #3875
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    Re: The Great Global Warming Thread (merged)

    ^^^^^ Not unlike former US jobs that have been offloaded to Mexico. It's a toxic waste dump as well.

    I read an article about a year ago where some California Liberal was so proud of the "Green" way that CA generates it's electricity.

    I almost gagged reading it - the stupid Bast..d neglected to mention how much electricity California sucks off of neighboring states as far away as Texas.

    Then attempts to blame it's rolling blackouts from failed environmental policies on other states.

    California no longer has the resources and infrastructure to survive on it's own and that's a crying shame. Critical resources like electricity and water.

    The Golden State, once the 8th largest economy on the planet, has morphed into the Great Failed Liberal Model.

  6. #3876
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    Re: The Great Global Warming Thread (merged)

    Let's Talk CO2.

    Notice the following graphs about the world's generation of CO2- both present and future:

    Notice the "linear thinking" of the following graph:



    And they want to tax the US for generating so much. Let me tell you how many nickles the Chinese are putting into it.

    Next- consider the following graph from the EPA:



    Now this one is non-linear. That's because it ONLY considers Global CO2 Emissions from Fossil-Fuel Burning, Cement Manufacture, and Gas Flaring.

    Now look at the man-made contributors:



    Looks terrifying- doesn't it.

    Well, let's put it into perspective:



    Wow- only about 5%. And the US contribution? With all the outsourcing of polluting industries to China, etc.- where is it all coming from?

    Well consider this: The total number of motor vehicles in the US increased as follows:

    1970: 108 million
    1980: 156 million
    1990: 189 million
    2000: 218 million
    2010: 250 million (est.)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passeng..._United_States
    http://www.bts.gov/publications/nati...ble_01_11.html

    Well- think it through. Who is the bad guy here? Why?
    "We say in our platform that we believe that the right to coin money and issue money is a function of government....

    Those who are opposed to this proposition tell us that the issue of paper money is a function of the bank and that the government ought to go out of the banking business. I stand with Jefferson rather than with them, and tell them, as he did, that the issue of money is a function of the government and that the banks should go out of the governing business."

    William Jennings Bryan.

  7. #3877
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    Re: The Great Global Warming Thread (merged)

    CO2 is harmless plant food anyway.

    This entire scam is based on a false proposition.

  8. #3878
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    Re: The Great Global Warming Thread (merged)

    Some more wind power home truths:

    http://carbon-sense.com/wp-content/u...-wont-work.pdf

    E.g.

    Suppose a wind farm is producing an average of 50 MW, but varying from zero to 100 MW. The backup has to be able to handle both changes, namely a drop of 50 MW and an increase of 50 MW. So basically, you have to have 100 MW capacity on spinning reserve, but running at 50% so that you can increase or decrease power by 50 MW. So the backup facility has to have TWICE the real rated capacity of the wind farm. Imagine what this does to the capital, operating and maintenance costs if the power company is forced to include wind power in its inventory.


    Oh and so much for not bunching up wind turbines:



    This monstrosity is in the Humber Estuary in the north of England.

  9. #3879
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    Re: The Great Global Warming Thread (merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by Enmore View Post
    CO2 is harmless plant food anyway.

    This entire scam is based on a false proposition.
    Exactly right. Moreover, technological emission is basically lost in the noise of total world output.

    Our crime is in how we are destroying our ability to process CO2. The phytoplankton being killed in the pacific did not disappear because of CO2 emission. It is because of the killing of much of the sea life by everything from fishing to dumping toxic wastes. Unlike the US, many of the Pac Rim countries and China do not have environmental regulations or an enforcement agency worth a sh*t. The US has one that addresses most anything but the real issues. The ecology of the Pacific is being compromised and we've diverted resources and diplomatic cred to fight the wrong battle. The more I think about An Inconvenient Truth and its follwo up, the more stupid and despicable I find Al Gore. That he did not become president is proof that there is a good God.

    Don't kid yourself- we are killing ourselves even if an asteroid doesn't find us first. It's just not from CO2 global warming. We do need controls- but we need effective ones. We do need to fix it- but taxation to pay off bankers and buying carbon credits is not the way to do it.

    Also, one of the very first things I learned in biology was that over-population kills as sure as anything. That's another lesson we need to get.
    Last edited by AeroSim; 02-16-2011 at 09:25 AM.
    "We say in our platform that we believe that the right to coin money and issue money is a function of government....

    Those who are opposed to this proposition tell us that the issue of paper money is a function of the bank and that the government ought to go out of the banking business. I stand with Jefferson rather than with them, and tell them, as he did, that the issue of money is a function of the government and that the banks should go out of the governing business."

    William Jennings Bryan.

  10. #3880
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    Re: The Great Global Warming Thread (merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by Enmore View Post
    ...

    Oh and so much for not bunching up wind turbines:



    This monstrosity is in the Humber Estuary in the north of England.
    American the beautiful ...



    "We say in our platform that we believe that the right to coin money and issue money is a function of government....

    Those who are opposed to this proposition tell us that the issue of paper money is a function of the bank and that the government ought to go out of the banking business. I stand with Jefferson rather than with them, and tell them, as he did, that the issue of money is a function of the government and that the banks should go out of the governing business."

    William Jennings Bryan.

  11. #3881
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    Re: The Great Global Warming Thread (merged)

    ^^^ Altimont Pass? Last I checked most of those eyesores up there aint even in service any more. When the subsidies went away.. so did the interest in greenmoonbattery... a reoccurring theme.

    The Futility of Wind Power

    Heh.. I like this one better than the popular pirates =MMGW graph...

    Forget CO2, US Debt “Causes” Warming

    Total US Debt (public and private) as a percentage of US Gross Domestic Product (GDP) correlates with NASA GISS US Annual Mean Temperature Anomaly better than CO2 levels! So, if we want to reduce warming, cut the debt!



    The base chart tracks Total Public and Private US Debt as a percentage of GDP (black line) from 1870 through 2009. Notice how it slowly increases from 1880 to 1930 and then peaks sharply in the early 1930′s, declines through the 1950′s and then rises steadily through 2009.


    NASA GISS data for the US Annual 5 year Mean Temperature Anomaly from 1880 to the present is superimposed (red line), and fits remarkably well. It is a bit noisier, but it too increases from 1880 to 1930 and then peaks sharply in the early 1930′s. It then declines through 1970, and then rises steadily through 2010.

    Notice how CO2 levels (dotted blue line), estimated from 1880 through 1957 and based on Mauna Loa from 1958 through 2010, fail to indicate any peaking in the 1930′s.

    It is amazing how the Warmists point to human-caused CO2 as the primary cause of Global Warming when Total US Debt as a Percentage of GDP matches so much better! Perhaps cutting the GISS budget will do more for the Warmist cause than wrecking our economy by cutting energy use and sequestering CO2? Let us save the environment by increasing US productivity and reducing deficits!

    BOTTOM LINE:

    1) I really do not think that US Debt is related to warming temperature at all, but it seems to be more related than CO2. (A geometric analogy: An ellipse has no corners at all, but it has more corners than a circle :^)

    2) Correlation does not prove causation, and CO2 does not even correlate all that well as the cause of warming. Therefore, human activities, while most likely responsible for some small part of recent warming (see this) are overwhelmed by natural cycles and processes, responsible for most of the actual warming since 1880. Indeed, the greatest human cause of the supposed warming has been Data Bias, due to “adjustments” and re-analysis by NASA GISS.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  12. #3882
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    Re: The Great Global Warming Thread (merged)

    I'd like to try one of these on a shredder:



    A couple of rounds to the hub might be interesting.



    Oops...
    Last edited by Enmore; 02-16-2011 at 07:16 PM.

  13. #3883
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    Re: The Great Global Warming Thread (merged)

    "We say in our platform that we believe that the right to coin money and issue money is a function of government....

    Those who are opposed to this proposition tell us that the issue of paper money is a function of the bank and that the government ought to go out of the banking business. I stand with Jefferson rather than with them, and tell them, as he did, that the issue of money is a function of the government and that the banks should go out of the governing business."

    William Jennings Bryan.

  14. #3884
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    Re: The Great Global Warming Thread (merged)

    Whodathinkit... ice on wind turbines would be an issue in the age of Man Made Global Warming... Climate Change... climate disruption...

    Ice buildup on wind turbines cuts reusable energy

    A $200-million wind farm in northern New Brunswick is frozen solid, cutting off a supply of renewable energy for NB Power.

    The 25-kilometre stretch of wind turbines, 70 kilometres northwest of Bathurst, has been shut down for several weeks due to heavy ice covering the blades. GDF Suez Energy, the company that owns and operates the site, is working to return the windmills to working order, a spokeswoman says.

    "We can't control the weather," Julie Vitek said from company headquarters in Houston. "We're looking to see if we can cope with it more effectively, through the testing of a couple of techniques."

    She says the conditions in northern New Brunswick have caused havoc for the wind farm this winter.

    "For us, cold and dry weather is good and that's what's typical in the region. Cold and wet weather can be a problem without any warmer days to prompt thawing, which has been the case this year. This weather pattern has been particularly challenging."

    The accumulated ice alters the aerodynamics of the blades, rendering them ineffective as airfoils. The added weight further immobilizes the structures.

    Vitek says workers are trying to find a way to prevent ice buildup from occurring again in the future.
    Oh.. silly me. I forgot for a second that nothing falsify's the MMGW theory. It's all because of MMGW...
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  15. #3885
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    Re: The Great Global Warming Thread (merged)

    Good article on the Steig issue I've been following...

    Debunking the Antarctica myths



    In January 2009, Nature magazine ran the a cover story (pictured) conveying dramatic news about Antarctica: that most of it had warmed significantly over the last half-century. For years, the data from this frozen continent - with 90 percent of the world’s ice mass - had stubbornly refused to corroborate the global warming narrative. So the study, led by Eric Steig of the University of Washington, was treated as a bit of a scoop. It reverberated around the world. Gavin Schmidt, from the RealClimate blog, declared that Antarctica had silenced the sceptics. Mission, it seemed, was accomplished: Antarctica was no longer an embarrassment to the global warming narrative.

    He spoke too soon. The indefatigable Steve McIntyre started to scrutinise his followings along with Nicholas Lewis. They found several flaws: Steig et al had used too few data sequences to speak for an entire continent, and had processed the data in a very questionable way. But when they wanted to correct him, in another journal, they quickly ran into an inconvenient truth about global warming: the high priests do not like refutation. To have their critique (pdf) of Steig’s work published, they needed to assuage the many demands of an anonymous ‘Reviewer A’ - whom they later found out to be Steig himself.

    Lewis and Matt Ridley have joined forces to tell the story in the cover issue of this week’s Spectator. It’s another powerful, and depressing tale of the woeful state of climate science. Real science welcomes refutation: with global warming, it is treated as a religion. As they say in their cover story:

    “Nature’s original peer-review process had let through an obviously flawed paper, and no professional climate scientist then disputed it - perhaps because of fear that doing so might harm their careers. As the title of Richard Bean’s new play - The Heretic - at the Royal Court hints, young scientists going into climate studies these days are a bit like young theologians in Elizabethan England. They quickly learn that funding and promotion dries up if you express heterodox views, or doubt the scripture. The scripture, in this case, being the assembled reports of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.”
    They went through 88 pages of correspondence in their battle to have their critique published. “So has Antarctica been warming? Mostly not - at least not measurably. Retreat of the floating Antarctic ice shelves is a favourite story for the media. But, except in a very few peripheral parts, Antarctica is far too cold to lose ice by surface melting.”

    As Lewis & Ridley say in their closing paragraphs:

    “Papers that come to lukewarm or sceptical conclusions are published, if at all, only after the insertion of catechistic sentences to assert their adherence to orthodoxy. Last year, a paper in Nature Geosciences concluded heretically that `it is at present impossible to accurately determine climate sensitivity to carbon dioxide’ (high sensitivity underpins the entire IPCC argument), yet presaged this with the (absurd) remark: `Earth's climate can only be stabilized by bringing carbon dioxide emissions under control in the twenty-first century.’
    Likewise, a paper In Science last month linking periods of migration in European history with cooler weather stated: `Such historical data may provide a basis for counteracting the recent political and fiscal reluctance to mitigate projected climate change.’ Sceptical climatologist Pat Michaels pointed out that the sentence would make more sense with `counteracting’ removed.

    Science as a philosophy is a powerful, but fragile thing. In the case of climate, it is now in conflict with science as an institution.”
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


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