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  1. #16
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    Re: The magnificient U.K. thread

    More on the latter^^[and dont get offended when I tease about socialists]

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle1845229.ece

  2. #17
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    Re: The magnificient U.K. thread

    I don't know about merging this thread with general European affairs. Every time one tries to include The Chaps they really make a big deal out of it ^^
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  3. #18
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    Re: The magnificient U.K. thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jimzinsocal View Post
    More on the latter^^[and dont get offended when I tease about socialists]

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle1845229.ece

    Don't worry I know you're only teasing.


    After September 11, 2001, in common with many other nations, we passed new antiterror laws.
    But Why?

    It's not as if we never had terrorism before.

    I don't know what Blair is smoking sometimes. I really don't. Blaming the judiciary for throwing out the state's abilty to detain foreign nationals makes me laugh.

    It was his government who gave our unelected, clueless judges the power to overturn laws introduced by parliament. Surely he must know how out of touch with reality judges are? Both he and his apppaling wife are lawyers for god's sake.

    He's been PM for 10 years. He can blame no one but himself for the dreadful state we're in.
    Last edited by Enmore; 05-27-2007 at 02:04 PM. Reason: typos

  4. #19
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    Re: The magnificient U.K. thread

    Im curious. As you see things...and I assume you are a pretty typical Brit.
    Beyond the war in Iraq? What are the big issues there that get folks bothered?

    I figure thats gotta be another use for this thread. So much of what we talk about is domestic stuff.
    And I know Im curious to see how you guys see things.[since we do have a pretty fair Euro membership]
    Last edited by jimzinsocal; 05-27-2007 at 12:47 PM.

  5. #20
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    Re: The magnificient U.K. thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Enmore View Post

    I don't know what Blair is smoking sometimes. I really don't. Blaming the judiciacy for throwing out the state's abilty to detain foreign nationals makes me laugh.



    Judges have been throwing out or overturning laws in this country for decades, if not centuries, and the reason is nearly always the same: parliament makes a pig's ear of drafting the law in the first place. Where the law was drawn up properly, any challenges have failed.


    And out of interest, would you still agree with detention without trial if it was you who were detained without trial? Remember we are talking about people against who there is little of no evidence: guilty of having a beard and an accent essentially. After all, the security services hit rate so far appears to be 50:50 at best. And if we abandon civil liberties to beat terrorism, what's the point of winning? Surely we have simply reduced ourselves to their level.


    M

  6. #21
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    Re: The magnificient U.K. thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Meridian View Post
    Judges have been throwing out or overturning laws in this country for decades, if not centuries, and the reason is nearly always the same: parliament makes a pig's ear of drafting the law in the first place. Where the law was drawn up properly, any challenges have failed.
    I'm not so sure about that. If that's the case then it's wrong. Sure, parliament can be an ass, but a judges job should be to uphold the law, not undermine it.

    And out of interest, would you still agree with detention without trial if it was you who were detained without trial?
    I don't think there should be detention without trial. I was against the govenment extending the time they could do this. In fact I think it's ridiculous that people are kept on remand for months, years even without their cases coming to trial. The right to due process and a speedy trial is something that has been around since Magna Carta. The trouble is that the judicial system is run by lawyers for lawyers and to hell with everyone else.

    I do feel that if the person under suspicion is a foreign national they should be kicked out immediatly, no appeal, no arguments.

    Remember we are talking about people against who there is little of no evidence: guilty of having a beard and an accent essentially. After all, the security services hit rate so far appears to be 50:50 at best. And if we abandon civil liberties to beat terrorism, what's the point of winning? Surely we have simply reduced ourselves to their level.
    Civil liberties does not mean turning us into a doormat for every foreigner with a sob story or a cause. If they don't like it they go back home and try their luck there.

    I'm sick of having my free speech and other rights impinged because the government is too gutless to sort out a minority of trouble makers.

  7. #22
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    Re: The magnificient U.K. thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Enmore View Post
    I'm not so sure about that. If that's the case then it's wrong. Sure, parliament can be an ass, but a judges job should be to uphold the law, not undermine it.
    I'm not sure how it works over there, but I imagine it's similar to our system (both being based on English Common Law and all). Here, police enforce the law, the legislature creates the law, and the judiciary...judges the law and uses it to administer justice. If a law isn't Constitutional then the judiciary declares it null and void and the legislature is forced to create a new law.
    Promote then, as an object of primary importance, institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened.

  8. #23
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    Re: The magnificient U.K. thread

    Now here. Here is an example...I think that demonstrates a point.
    We all like the civil liberty we call freedom of speech.
    But I wonder? When does it become self defeating?

    http://littlegreenfootballs.com/webl...s_Theater&only

    If you go thru Charles' site youll see he has a bone to pick...that I think is legit.
    Speak ill of Islamists? The video goes away.
    Why the different standard for this swill?
    Last edited by jimzinsocal; 05-27-2007 at 03:39 PM.

  9. #24
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    Re: The magnificient U.K. thread

    The list of possible restrictions and obligations that can be included in a control order is long. It can place restrictions on what the person can use or possess, his place of work, place of residence, whom he speaks to, and where he can travel. Furthermore, the person can be ordered to surrender his passport, let the police visit his home at any time, report to officials at a specific time and place, and allow himself to be electronically tagged so his movements can be tracked.
    Man ! I think another guy tried that back in the late 30's early 40's over Germany
    way and countries that he invaded. I believe they were called ghettos and
    those folks had to wear a star on their chests & numbers on their arms.
    Sounds like it could end up that way. I saw that little spy satellite that the
    cops over in England plan to deploy to watch out for "criminals". How
    is it going to be able to tell the difference ? Sounds more like it's just
    going to spy on EVERYONE over there.

  10. #25
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    Re: The magnificient U.K. thread

    I don't mean to disparage the U.K. but these are the things I notice when I read about the kingdom.

    http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/tra...icle334686.ece

    Britain is to become the first country in the world where the movements of all vehicles on the roads are recorded. A new national surveillance system will hold the records for at least two years.

    Using a network of cameras that can automatically read every passing number plate, the plan is to build a huge database of vehicle movements so that the police and security services can analyse any journey a driver has made over several years.
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle650166.ece

    The microphones can detect conversations 100 yards away and record aggressive exchanges before they become violent.

    The devices are used at 300 sites in Holland and police, councils and transport officials in London have shown an interest in installing them before the 2012 Olympics.

    The interest in the equipment comes amid growing concern that Britain is becoming a “surveillance society”. It was recently highlighted that there are more than 4.2m CCTV cameras, with the average person being filmed more than 300 times a day. The addition of microphones would take surveillance into uncharted territory.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...on/6163116.stm

    Police are to use head-mounted video cameras to help in the fight against anti-social behaviour.

    Eight Metropolitan Police officers in Haringey, north London, will use the devices on the beat, to record evidence of people causing trouble.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770

    Big Brother is not only watching you - now he's barking orders too. Britain's first 'talking' CCTV cameras have arrived, publicly berating bad behaviour and shaming offenders into acting more responsibly.

    The system allows control room operators who spot any anti-social acts - from dropping litter to late-night brawls - to send out a verbal warning: 'We are watching you'.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-so...ehaviour_order

    Typical ASBOs
    The type of evidence required to obtain is much wider than for criminal cases. Both hearsay evidence and anonymous testimony are admissible as evidence. In order to obtain an ASBO a 2 stage test must be satisfied by the applicant authority, see section 1(1) Crime and Disorder Act 1998. The first is that the Defendant has committed acts causing or likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress within 6 months of the date of issue of the summons and secondly that an order is necessary to protect relevant persons (persons in the local authority or police area) from further anti-social behaviour. The first part of the test requires proof to the criminal standard, i.e. beyond reasonable doubt but the second has no burden or standard or proof only that the court in its judgment or evaulation considers it to be necessary, see R (on th application of McCann and others) v Crown Court at Manchester 2003. An application for an ASBO is considered by the courts in its civil jurisdiction and is a civil order however breach of an ASBO is a criminal offence and result on conviction of up to 5 years imprisonment (2 if a minor). An ASBO may contain any prohibition even if the same is not an anti-social act, e.g. can include a prohibition in entering an area or speaking to named persons. Cases of orders have included:

    * Vandalism[8]
    * Theft[9]
    * Abusive behaviour[10]
    * Harassment[9]
    * Flyposting[11]
    * Organising illegal raves[12]
    * Begging[13]

    Less conventional uses of ASBOs include:-

    * Recently, a woman given an ASBO preventing her from jumping into rivers, canals or railways.[14] This is because the rescue services were placed at risk when rescuing her from these places whilst she was attempting suicide. Magistrates made her subject to an ASBO, which means that if she attempts suicide again she could be sent to prison.
    * Two teenage boys from east Manchester forbidden to wear one golf glove.[15]
    * A 13-year-old forbidden to use the word "grass".[15]
    * A 17-year-old forbidden to use his front door. [16]
    * An 87-year-old man ordered not to shout, swear or make "sarcastic remarks to neighbours or their visitors".[17]
    * In the centre of Manchester, a group of residents were calling for an ASBO against noisy builders on big construction sites.[18]
    * In 2004 Sony Music and BMG were threatened with anti-social behaviour orders by Camden Borough Council for illegal flyposting[19].
    * Children playing games in Grove Place Estate in Hampstead could receive ASBOs.[20]
    Promote then, as an object of primary importance, institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened.

  11. #26
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    Re: The magnificient U.K. thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangutan View Post
    I'm not sure how it works over there, but I imagine it's similar to our system (both being based on English Common Law and all). Here, police enforce the law, the legislature creates the law, and the judiciary...judges the law and uses it to administer justice.
    Yes, precisely. Unfortunately the Human Rights Act 1998 is being used to undermine this process.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Rights_Act_1998

    If a law isn't Constitutional then the judiciary declares it null and void and the legislature is forced to create a new law.
    From an article:

    There is nothing wrong in principle with judicial review of government actions. The United States Supreme Court frequently rules on the legality of the administration's measures. But the difference is that the US has a defined constitution, framed at the birth of the republic, which reflects the country's own political mores and is straightforward in its application. The European Convention on Human Rights, by contrast, is an alien import, articulating a series of airy and contradictory principles which leave judges almost total scope for interpretation.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m.../11/dl1101.xml


    I don't mean to disparage the U.K. but these are the things I notice when I read about the kingdom.
    ASBOs are like badges of honour to scumbags. They're generally counterproductive.

    The irony of all this big brother stuff is that it's a huge waste of time. Our prisons are full (at least 40% are foreigners I might add) and they refuse to build anymore. Even murderers don't get a 'life sentence' anymore. The government pretends to be tough by giving somone a headline figure of say '2 years', but what isn't said is that they'll be quiety let out in 6 months time. Prison is like a constantly revolving door these days.

    Mostly its just another revenue scam though. They're always using camoflage like global warming or the threat of terrorism to justify their dumb ideas. What they'd love to do is have a satellite based road pricing system. I bet they just cream themselves thinking about that one.

    I should add that I don't have any sympathy with drivers that run around without valid insurance. I think they should get their car impounded and crushed. It's bastards like them who put up the prices up for everyone else. Apparently 1 in 15 cars on our roads have no insurance.

    The cop cams are a logical extension of the vehicle mounted ones that have been around for a while now. They provide useful evidence and make great TV.

    Most people just instinctively pay up when presented with an automated speeding prosecution. I got one through the post a few years ago & being me, I asked to see the evidence. They sent me a small, grainy black & white photo of the back of my car, so there was no way they could identify me as the driver. I was supposed to plead guilty on a form, pay a fine and have 3 points put on my licience. I decided not to bother and I've never heard anything since. If they were really interested in 'justice' they would come after me - they know where I live after all. Thing is, it's just not cost effective to send a policeman out and drag me through the courts; so they quietly write it off.


    Well... they want us to be part of Europe, so I thumb my nose at them as any good Italian would.

  12. #27
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    Re: The magnificient U.K. thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jimzinsocal View Post
    Im curious. As you see things...and I assume you are a pretty typical Brit.
    Beyond the war in Iraq? What are the big issues there that get folks bothered?

    I figure thats gotta be another use for this thread. So much of what we talk about is domestic stuff.
    And I know Im curious to see how you guys see things.[since we do have a pretty fair Euro membership]
    I'm not quite sure what the "typical Brit" is. I'm a Northern (Scottish) Brit. There are several things that piss me off:

    1. House prices

    Average price of a house in the UK is 179, 000.

    Average wage in the UK is aproximately 21, 000 per annum.

    The only way I'm goinmg be able to afford to buy anywhere in the near future is if I get married and get a joint mortgage. I don't want to get married...


    2. Manufacturing industry down the Shi**er

    In the 1960s Glasgow had 64 shipyards on the Clyde. Now there are 3. Obviously the rise of ship-building in South Korea and places with cheaper laboour could be expected to take a fair chunk out of business, but Margaret Thatcher screwed up big time by not having a number of these converted from serving the MOD, to building cruise ships. This is what what the Norwegians, Finns, Dutch and Poles did with great success. Oh, and the fact she withrew all subsidies at the same time as almost every other government increased theirs.

    The Queen Mary II being built in France is a huge bitch-slap.

    We also have no British-owned British car-makers. There were 36 in the 1960s. British Leyland was the World's largest truck maker. Now the bloody Germans own Rolls-Royce and the Mini for Christ sake!

    Basically everybody in Britain now works in some sort of service industry job. If not that, then the Health Service, which is the 3rd largest employer in the world, after the Chinese Army and Indian Railways.

    3. Inability to project power

    These days, anybody can basically do anything they want and we can't do anythng about it. As witnessed recently when the Iranians captured the Royal Navy personnel in Iraqi waters (the Navy personnel being quite adequately armed with pea-shooters of course). Also that prime arsehole in Zimbabwe, Robert Mugabe, who should have been dealt with a long time ago.

    Having a larger military force, I think would have enabled us to have more influence on the US, regarding post-invasion Iraq.

    4. Inability to use money efficiently.

    Seems like every project sees huge amounts of money being spent on consultant and bureaucrats who do f**k all. Impressive as the new English national football stadium is, how is that the Portuguese were able to build 5 respectable stadia for the same price as the new Wembley? Again, the Olympic Stadium in Athens cost 1/5th of the cost of Wembley.

    Scottish Parliament

    Why was this ugly piece of sh*t of a building ever put up? The Scottish people wanted an existing building used, but no, that was too much of a Nationalist icon, and it was going to cost 50 million to have converted for wheelchair access and the new building was going to only cost 40 million. Oh sorry, that'll actually be 450 million...


    Rant over...

  13. #28
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    Re: The magnificient U.K. thread

    I hadnt realized how severe the ship building had become. Ive gotta read on that. I think the last I read/saw was some ship you guys were building for us.
    But wow. Thats a big falloff.

    I hear you on the building[last point] and how national identity gets disolved.
    Last edited by jimzinsocal; 05-28-2007 at 10:13 AM.

  14. #29
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    Re: The magnificient U.K. thread

    ^ well that pretty much covers it for me too.

    Today I hear that the biggest teaching union wants a 10% pay rise because their junior members can't afford current house prices. Aint gonna happen.

    The Scottish parliament is truly foul. It looks like some Eurotrash apartment complex.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottis...ament_Building

    Talking of overspend, just wait for the 2012 Olympics. I was rooting for Paris for that very reason. I think Chirac played a blinder by insulting Finnish cuisine to deliberately lose the vote.
    Last edited by Enmore; 05-28-2007 at 10:15 AM.

  15. #30
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    Re: The magnificient U.K. thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Enmore View Post
    ^ well that pretty much covers it for me too.

    Today I hear that the biggest teaching union wants a 10% pay rise because their junior members can't afford current house prices. Aint gonna happen.

    The Scottish parliament is truly foul. It looks like some Eurotrash apartment complex.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottis...ament_Building

    Talking of overspend, just wait for the 2012 Olympics. I was rooting for Paris for that very reason. I think Chirac played a blinder by insulting Finnish cuisine to deliberately lose the vote.
    ^^ Stop complaining. We have more parliaments covering our tiny country than you guys do for 100x the landmass and population. We have two federal parliaments like the house of commons and house of lords you guys have. Then we have the Flemmish parliament, The Wallon parliament and one for Brussels too, that makes five not covering the European parliament. Not only does that cost a lot of money, they also never get along which slows the decision making process of many cases severely. It has gotten so bad with the airport case concerning the airplanes and which routes they take that DHL decided to go build their headquarters in Dresden instead of Brussels. Their decision is now a few years back and still there isn't a bloody compromise that is acceptable for every parliament and government. Because guess what, every bloody parliament has a government of its own with their own ministers.
    Last edited by Wolf2000me; 05-28-2007 at 11:01 AM.
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