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  1. #31
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    Re: "Dictatorship of Idiots" triumphs over experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchcedar View Post
    ^^^ The world outside of academia only see what's thrown at us and that rarely gives confidence
    Whose fault is that? Do people actively seek out the knowledge or do they just bitch and moan incorrectly and out of ignorance? I'd say the latter given that something like half of all Americans "reject" evolution or that 63% can't find Iraq on a map.

    A case in point is Ward Churchill... we don't see his peers giving him a fair review, but instead see a Sandy Burglaresque pass.
    How so? Who is "giving him a pass" and where? His Eichmann essay? The one that didn't appear in a peer-reviewed journal? Personal opinion isn't subject to peer review.

    Additionally, many of us await this "tearing apart" of the phony bulldung put out regarding man-made global warming, but it all seems to get a pass. In the meantime, Mars and Venus show signs of warming, but no signs of SUV's.
    What are you talking about? That's a misuse of logic and information. Why is it "phony bulldung"? Do you know enough about the science to prove it so? Upon what do you base that assertion?
    Promote then, as an object of primary importance, institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened.

  2. #32
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    Re: "Dictatorship of Idiots" triumphs over experience

    ^^^ I think you just confirmed my points.

  3. #33
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    Re: "Dictatorship of Idiots" triumphs over experience

    Intellectuals are humans and if I remember the scientific method correctly part of it is research and hyposthesizing. You can sum up most science by simply the hypothesis... what conclusions are they trying to draw... So much time has spent trying to prove darwins theories. I do not doubt that flesh evolves or changes. I still believe in Creation. I dont buy the pseudo science crap religious organizations push either. I have a problem with the whole classification system and the definition of species .. In macro evolution or human evolution were not missing a "link" were missing a whole chain between us and the apes that share many of our characteristics.

    I like empirical data just not the trendy or slanted or over reaching conlusions drawn by them. Im not gonna lie my belief in God is not based off scientific evidence. However I do not see anything scientific that is capable of shaking my belief system. I do believe that we will know most if not of all mysteries of this physical universe and that our incredible ability to reason and discover is the definition of our being and what is meant by being created in Gods image.
    Last edited by PaternityTest; 06-04-2007 at 03:09 PM.

  4. #34
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    Re: "Dictatorship of Idiots" triumphs over experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchcedar View Post
    ^^^ I think you just confirmed my points.
    How is that? By pointing out that you're incorrect and making faulty statements? That is now "elitism"?

    Quote Originally Posted by PaternityTest View Post
    I do not doubt that flesh evolves or changes. I still believe in Creation. I dont buy the pseudo science crap religious organizations push either. I have a problem with the whole classification system and the definition of species .. In macro evolution or human evolution were not missing a "link" were missing a whole chain between us and the apes that share many of our characteristics.
    Huh? What are you talking about?
    Promote then, as an object of primary importance, institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened.

  5. #35
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    Re: "Dictatorship of Idiots" triumphs over experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangutan View Post
    Huh? What are you talking about?
    Whose fault is that? Do people actively seek out the knowledge or do they just bitch and moan incorrectly and out of ignorance? I'd say the latter given that something like half of all Americans "reject" evolution or that 63% can't find Iraq on a map.
    I'm part of that half that "ignorantly rejects" evolution.. but im not ignorant about it at all. It shows elitism becuase becuase you assume I must be ignorant to reject evolutionary theory.

  6. #36
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    Re: "Dictatorship of Idiots" triumphs over experience

    Quote Originally Posted by PaternityTest View Post
    I'm part of that half that "ignorantly rejects" evolution.. but im not ignorant about it at all. It shows elitism becuase becuase you assume I must be ignorant to reject evolutionary theory.
    One, how is that "elitist"? Two, I also said incorrectly, as well as out of ignorance. And three, what is your objection to "evolution"? You said that you believe evolution happens but you don't believe humans evolve. How does that make sense? You say there is not a "missing link" but a "missing chain between us and the apes". We are apes, we share ~99% of our DNA with the chimpanzee...nevermind, actually, we've covered evolution a dozen times at least and there's no need to rehash it here. Look, there is no "rejection of evolution" unless you also reject science and the scientific method. You can take issue with certain points within it but all evolution says is that there is a change in allele frequency over time due to natural and sexual selection. That's it. There has to be a mechanism to explain observed change.
    Last edited by Orangutan; 06-04-2007 at 03:37 PM.
    Promote then, as an object of primary importance, institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened.

  7. #37
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    Re: "Dictatorship of Idiots" triumphs over experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangutan View Post
    One, how is that "elitist"? Two, I also said incorrectly, as well as out of ignorance. And three, what is your objection to "evolution"? You said that you believe evolution happens but you don't believe humans evolve. How does that make sense? You say there is not a "missing link" but a "missing chain between us and the apes". We are apes, we share ~99% of our DNA with the chimpanzee...nevermind, actually, we've covered evolution a dozen times at least and there's no need to rehash it here. Look, there is no "rejection of evolution" unless you also reject science and the scientific method. You can take issue with certain points within it but all evolution says is that there is a change in allele frequency over time due to natural and sexual selection. That's it. There has to be a mechanism to explain observed change.
    I buy that but I dont but it as origin of the human species. Oh it is elitist if im not ignorant im ... incorrect.

  8. #38
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    Re: "Dictatorship of Idiots" triumphs over experience

    If you're not an experienced internet user it's a problem. But for any experienced internet user, knowing what's legit, what's not, what's credible what isn't, shouldn't be to hard.

  9. #39
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    Re: "Dictatorship of Idiots" triumphs over experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Computerwiz View Post
    If you're not an experienced internet user it's a problem. But for any experienced internet user, knowing what's legit, what's not, what's credible what isn't, shouldn't be to hard.
    Most people read what they want to read Wiz.
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  10. #40
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    Re: "Dictatorship of Idiots" triumphs over experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangutan View Post
    How is that? By pointing out that you're incorrect and making faulty statements? That is now "elitism"?
    Let me try to explain... at least your first question, in hopes you'll be able to connect the dots on the others...

    I said: "The world outside of academia only see what's thrown at us and that rarely gives confidence..." You respond with:
    Whose fault is that? Do people actively seek out the knowledge or do they just bitch and moan incorrectly and out of ignorance? I'd say the latter given that something like half of all Americans "reject" evolution or that 63% can't find Iraq on a map.
    We could look at this a couple of ways. First would be that its "academia" who teaches us low lifes and that its audacious for them to bitch afterwards about how little we know.

    A better answer is that first, everyone that can read can eventually find Iraq on a map. Were it an unlabeled map, I would be surprised if a much larger percentage of academia could find Iraq than the lowly serf class... but who knows for sure? But I'm certain the lowly fighting class could embarass the academics on the test.

    To the evolution thing. I take it from your response that anyone who doesn't buy into the theory of evolution hook, line and sinker is a dumbarse in your eyes. Well guess what? I disagree. Conversely, I would say that anyone who thinks the world was "created" in a week is short of a few nuts and bolts. But your disregard for those who disagree with you and the assumption that they are less educated is the "elitism" you are talkin' about... or I was talkin' about. Your gallery of academics haven't proven evolution to be the only source of life nor have they disproven the concept of a creator... the proof and probably the truth lies somewhere in between. Yet you only want to hear one side.

    Now you can connect the other dots.

  11. #41
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    Re: "Dictatorship of Idiots" triumphs over experience

    Quote Originally Posted by PaternityTest View Post
    I buy that but I dont but it as origin of the human species. Oh it is elitist if im not ignorant im ... incorrect.
    So, what then? Do you disagree that humans are apes? How did humanity arise and why are we not subject to evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Computerwiz View Post
    If you're not an experienced internet user it's a problem. But for any experienced internet user, knowing what's legit, what's not, what's credible what isn't, shouldn't be to hard.
    Let me add to Wolf's comment: people don't care what's legitimate and what isn't so long as it appears legitimate and simultaneously agrees with their beliefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf2000me View Post
    Most people read what they want to read Wiz.
    Indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchcedar View Post
    Let me try to explain... at least your first question, in hopes you'll be able to connect the dots on the others...

    I said: "The world outside of academia only see what's thrown at us and that rarely gives confidence..." You respond with:

    We could look at this a couple of ways. First would be that its "academia" who teaches us low lifes and that its audacious for them to bitch afterwards about how little we know.
    My, my, now who is painting themselves the victim? Who is doing the denigration here? Not me, not the author of the original story, but you and tucker. I assign no value to being in either the "intellectual" or "non-intellectual world", things I don't really think exist anyway. You do, it would seem.

    A better answer is that first, everyone that can read can eventually find Iraq on a map. Were it an unlabeled map, I would be surprised if a much larger percentage of academia could find Iraq than the lowly serf class... but who knows for sure? But I'm certain the lowly fighting class could embarass the academics on the test.
    You seem to have a major chip on your shoulder.

    To the evolution thing. I take it from your response that anyone who doesn't buy into the theory of evolution hook, line and sinker is a dumbarse in your eyes.
    No, I don't think so. I think people who "disagree" with evolution are misguided at best. The ones who claim to be scientists and argue for Creationism are not so much misguided as they are dangerous.

    Well guess what? I disagree. Conversely, I would say that anyone who thinks the world was "created" in a week is short of a few nuts and bolts. But your disregard for those who disagree with you and the assumption that they are less educated is the "elitism" you are talkin' about... or I was talkin' about.
    The vast majority of people who "disagree" with evolution are less educated than I am on the topic, just as I am less educated than Stephen Hawking about astrophysics and black holes. I don't consider myself better or worse than him or anyone else because of education. As I've said, I attach no value judgment to anyone's level of education or amount of knowledge. I don't look down on those who are less learned than I am in a subject just as I don't resent those who are more learned. The fact of the matter is that, by and large, people who oppose "evolution", which for them means something other than what it actually says, are not as knowledgeable as the experts on the matter.

    Your gallery of academics haven't proven evolution to be the only source of life nor have they disproven the concept of a creator... the proof and probably the truth lies somewhere in between. Yet you only want to hear one side.

    Now you can connect the other dots.
    See, now you're just straw-manning me. I hear and I listen to all sides of a debate and I decide which is the proper one. You're mixing up the matter, anyway, as evolution does not seek to talk about the origin of life; that's not what it addresses. Moreover, science cannot prove nor disprove any belief in a "creator" because that is philosophy, not science. It'd be like trying to use psychology to explain hydrogen fusion.

    Not all opinions are created equal when it comes to factuality. If we just want to argue about the best way to attack an issue like terrorism or poverty or social security, that's one thing. But there are reasons why we have people who specialize in different fields and become experts in them. The "cult of the amateur", as describe above, is a very real and very dangerous problem. To cut to the core of the matter and stir the pot even more, I'd say that Republicans are guilty of supporting this cult with their continuous assault on the bastions of knowledge and training of future scientists: evolution and global warming are two easy examples of this. Look at this thread, for instance, for Republicans complaining about some "liberal elitism" or in other threads for Scooter bitching about teachers and teaching. Democrats are just as guilty, too, of supporting mediocrity, but they go about it in different ways.

    Think of Brave New World and the dancer whose physical features are disguised and is laden with chains. Mediocrity is not desirable.
    Promote then, as an object of primary importance, institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened.

  12. #42
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    Re: "Dictatorship of Idiots" triumphs over experience

    Quote Originally Posted by PaternityTest View Post
    Vested interest... Isn't that called an agenda.
    Bad choice of words perhaps, but does a journalist not have some sort of personal interest in the quality of his work that can directly impact his job and reputation? Certainly moreso than some anonymous poster behind Wikipedia?

    Maybe instead of picking on my vocabulary you could, oh, say refute my points and tell me why I'm wrong for saying that an amateur doesn't really give two hoots about the factual accuracy or quality of his post on Wikipedia or Newegg product reviews, whereas to a professional, his work means his reputation.
    Quote Originally Posted by tucker View Post
    Ok let me make a note of that: Experts can never be mediocre.

    In the business world mediocrity often leads to failure and bankruptcy.

    In the intellectual world mediocrity leads to peer praise.
    Mediocrity leads to peer praise among intellectuals...I don't know who's butt you pulled that gem out of.

    Not sure if you're aware or not, but research and expertise is a business in itself. Highly trained experts on topics sit and research and write and learn because they get paid. It may not be their only reason, but it is a necessity.

    Experts can be mediocre, but experts who are consistently mediocre (or just plain bad/wrong) will ultimately fail.
    Last edited by JungleMan; 06-04-2007 at 07:33 PM.
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  13. #43
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    Re: "Dictatorship of Idiots" triumphs over experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangutan View Post
    The vast majority of people who "disagree" with evolution are less educated than I am on the topic.
    there ya go, Mr. full of yourself...

    I couldn't describe an elitist any better than you just did.

  14. #44
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    Re: "Dictatorship of Idiots" triumphs over experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchcedar View Post
    there ya go, Mr. full of yourself...

    I couldn't describe an elitist any better than you just did.
    ...What the hell? I am more educated on the subject than most people who "disagree with evolution". That doesn't make it "elitist", that makes it true. Jesus. You know more about architecture than the laity. According to your logic, that makes you "elitist".
    Promote then, as an object of primary importance, institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened.

  15. #45
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    Re: "Dictatorship of Idiots" triumphs over experience

    =JungleMan;4079220

    Mediocrity leads to peer praise among intellectuals...I don't know who's butt you pulled that gem out of.

    Not sure if you're aware or not, but research and expertise is a business in itself. Highly trained experts on topics sit and research and write and learn because they get paid. It may not be their only reason, but it is a necessity.

    Experts can be mediocre, but experts who are consistently mediocre (or just plain bad/wrong) will ultimately fail.
    Read what I said and quit pulling words out of your butt.

    What I said is in the business world you can’t be mediocre and expect to succeed. In many parts of academia you can be mediocre and do just fine because in my opinion there is not enough peer pressure to cause failure.

    Bad choice of words perhaps, but does a journalist not have some sort of personal interest in the quality of his work that can directly impact his job and reputation? Certainly moreso than some anonymous poster behind Wikipedia?
    Speaking of little gems that one is a perfect example. Have you read the NY Times lately or the Washington Post? Have you watched any of the major networks or the big three cable networks? The quality of most of the journalists is far below par. Many of them are obviously biased and will write or say anything to push their agenda. That has been proven over and over again. Many of them flat don’t care about quality and reputation.

    If want to have academia or so-called experts as your only source of information that is your prerogative. It certainly isn’t mine…

    btw… I’ve seen the quality of Ryan’s work brought up, which is obviously done with great expertise & care and the quality of the posts at newegg mentioned in the same breath.

    I scratch my head in astonishment...

    The fact is the computer world is just a part of the overall picture.
    Last edited by tucker; 06-04-2007 at 08:23 PM.

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