Economic News/Discussion

[Keven]

Social Security was fine until we started borrowing from the fund to pay our government's bills. Now conservatives use it as an example of government gone wrong. Go figure.

Well, it has been hurt by fund raiding (what government fund hasn't), but it's still largely a Ponzi scheme that only works at long as more people are paying into it than taking out of it.

[Dutchcedar]

Social Security was fine until we started borrowing from the fund to pay our government's bills. Now conservatives use it as an example of government gone wrong. Go figure.

In one sentence you describe how the government went wrong and in the next, mock people who agree.

I think we have a thread for that kinda thing.

A conservative in the making.

[bk94si]

If an individual did what the government is doing, they would go to jail (Madoff).

[myv65]

And you want to know something? I'm almost at the point where I don't and would gladly elect to not have it.

When I started working full time, I made a conscious decision to *not* include SS in my projected retirement scheme. When I hit 30, I declared that I would voluntarily surrender everything I had put into the program, and let them continue taking the employer's portion of my contributions, in exchange for keeping my portion to invest as I choose. At 35, 40, and now 43, I'd make the same friggin' offer.

Barring the apocolypse, I won't *need* SS income. I'm a charitable guy, and frankly I'm numb to the concept of giving up what has always been withheld from my check, so I can stomach forever giving away that 6+% that my employer contributes. I'm literally past the point where I would give up what's been promised to me to reduce the burden to my descendents. Problem is finding the politicians who would actually do such a thing as opposed to doing their darndest to maintain the status quo (unsustainable) in an effort to keep their grip on the office.

As is, I find it comical when that yearly SS statement arrives. Depending on when I retire, and assuming a 0% rate on return (and ignoring the declining value of the dollar due to inflation) I'd have to live to be 104 (at last count) to recover every dollar I've put into the system. That's assuming my benefits don't get cut in the future, har, har.

IMHO, government should get out of the business of "retirement planning" for 100% of its citizens and stick to helping only those truly incapable of helping themselves. Same goes for healthcare in my book. As long as they try their "one size fits all" crapola, we're going to have lousy packages, fraud, and a certain portion of our society willing to live off the government teat rather than pull their own weight. I take it as a simple given that we all have some threshold beyond which we say, "screw it, what I'm being offered for nothing is good enough and it isn't worth working to have more". When what the government offers is too high, we've got too many people saying screw it, and that isn't healthy for any of us.

We need to incentivize self-sufficiency. . . and stop building so many stinking safety nets that try to catch every little stumble along life's way.

[Keven]

If an individual did what the government is doing, they would go to jail (Madoff).

Well bk, I keep hearing from liberals in Wisconsin (in relation to the budget/labor battle) that "governments can't be broke because they can just raise taxes on the rich and corporations get more money" (paraphrasing almost exactly what somebody said to me).

So, if Social Security ever goes broke, we can just go to the well for more! Yay!

[BlackDragon24]

In one sentence you describe how the government went wrong and in the next, mock people who agree.

I think we have a thread for that kinda thing.

A conservative in the making.

I was more making a comment that conservatives, who hate government and social security (in general), have done a magnificent job ensuring its eminent demise, and now say it is the biggest problem because they have ensured its eminent demise. Kinda the same as them saying now that medicaid/medicare is bloated after giving away billions of taxpayer dollars to prescription drug companies in a bill they rammed thru reconciliation.

I only wish we could press rewind and just see for the heck of it what would have happened had el chimpo gotten his way and dumped SS into the markets right before they collapsed. That woulda been fun.

Not so conservative in the making. I have a soul, and a conscience Dutch. I don't fit the pre-requisites for membership into the club

[Keven]

I was more making a comment that conservatives, who hate government and social security (in general), have done a magnificent job ensuring its eminent demise, and now say it is the biggest problem because they have ensured its eminent demise.

Hey, both parties raided government funds and used the SS trust as a low-interest bank.

Kinda the same as them saying now that medicaid/medicare is bloated after giving away billions of taxpayer dollars to prescription drug companies in a bill they rammed thru reconciliation.

Or kinda the same as ACORN, Barney Frank and other libs making banks give subprime mortagages out because "hey, they don't give mortage loans to black people", then being shocked when the whole financial industry implodes because people were getting mortages that shouldn't have.

[BlackDragon24]

Hey, both parties raided government funds and used the SS trust as a low-interest bank.

Your right. I just don't think conservatives have ever had any intention on fixing it because they considered it the devil in the first place. Borrowing from the "bank" was just a measure to inevitably take the bank down and give it to the other "bank," AKA the stock market.

Or kinda the same as ACORN, Barney Frank and other libs making banks give subprime mortgages out because "hey, they don't give mortgage loans to black people", then being shocked when the whole financial industry implodes because people were getting mortgages that shouldn't have.

I'm not quite sure who I place the majority of the blame on for the mortgage mess. Barney certainly deserves a lot of blame. I put most of the blame on stupid people who got hybrid loans thinking they could swing the $5000 a month payment in 5 years when their current income was half that.

[AeroSim]

I think if things suddenly worked like they should according to the Constitution, George Bush would be in Leavenworth the rest of his living days.

For that matter, hardly a soul in today's government or Federal Reserve would not be sitting in a big house somewhere. Moreover, I think a couple of Federal Reserve people would have swung from a rope. The Fed or its successor would also be run by congress as per the constitution

[Dutchcedar]

I was more making a comment that conservatives, who hate government and social security (in general), have done a magnificent job ensuring its eminent demise, and now say it is the biggest problem because they have ensured its eminent demise.

If any of that were true...

I only wish we could press rewind and just see for the heck of it what would have happened had el chimpo gotten his way and dumped SS into the markets right before they collapsed. That woulda been fun.

Meh. The markets are about the only thing that has an upside these days. He wanted people to have an option of putting a small percentage in (wasn't it 10%)... instead, it all remains in the feeding trough that's run dry.

So ya don't like the gubberment putting their mitts all over Social Security money, but if someone wants to privatize a small portion, they're being stoopid.

Okey dokey.

Spin it, baby.

[Dutchcedar]

We are sooo screwed.



You can read an opinion over at Ace's place (where I schlobbed the image from).

[BlackDragon24]

I think if things suddenly worked like they should according to the Constitution, George Bush would be in Leavenworth the rest of his living days.

For that matter, hardly a soul in today's government or Federal Reserve would not be sitting in a big house somewhere. Moreover, I think a couple of Federal Reserve people would have swung from a rope. The Fed or its successor would also be run by congress as per the constitution

Two things we could do as people to change things. Utopian style:

1) No more political donations
2) Once a politician is sworn in, he is essentially under oath the same way a witness is on the witness stand. You lie, you go to jail.

[Dutchcedar]

3) All elected positions can be held for no more than two terms.
4) You can only be elected to three different positions in a lifetime.

I dunno, is my distaste for career politicians showing?

I'm trying to be subtle.

5) Lobbying should be illegal, criminally.

[AMDScooter]

Two things we could do as people to change things. Utopian style:

1) No more political donations
2) Once a politician is sworn in, he is essentially under oath the same way a witness is on the witness stand. You lie, you go to jail.

See.. there's that inner conservative showing again BD.

[AeroSim]

Well, I don't know if any of you have been watching the markets lately, but we may have come to the break-point of the bond/currency crisis.

I'm going to admit that I know I've become pretty negative about our system and economy around here and have issued warnings that fortunately have not yet come to pass. My only saving grace is that I've seen solutions that might work and I've been hopeful that our system might turn it around.

Unfortunately, I now think that things have gone too far. I hope each of you have made some preparation for the worst. I know I've been doing so- yet I feel that monetarily it will be woefully inadequate for the need I think will be coming. And this time it may not be only gangs and thieves coming for what we have-

While I'm not a gold bug as far as currency goes, just about everything else about this discussion resonates with me. I think our government and Federal Reserve are being manipulated/run by an international banking consortium and they may now feel it may be time for America to tow their line. They will start by economically destroying the American middle class-





What movie is this from?
"Don't you find it galling that the crackpots had it right all along?"

This summer may see the fruits of this system's labor accelerate.