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  1. #9646
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    Re: Economic News/Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchcedar View Post
    If we continue to reduce federal spending like this, Barrack Obama will be correct in his claim that we don't have a debt problem.

    Yeppers.
    Some might call him a liar.
    Nuke em'.

  2. #9647
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    Re: Economic News/Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Nate View Post
    Some might call him a liar.
    What's shocking is how many would not.

  3. #9648
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    Re: Economic News/Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchcedar View Post
    If we continue to reduce federal spending like this, Barrack Obama will be correct in his claim that we don't have a debt problem.

    Yeppers.
    Got a source for that little gem of info? Cuz I'm willing to bet the devil is in the details in that $30 billion...like say the $51 billion that went to Sandy aid, or the fact that we had a national election during that time frame.

    Don't get me wrong, I get what you are saying....its not enough....but lets see how it looks once the sequester and the debt ceiling deals really kick in.

    And relative to the jobs problem we currently have, our debt problem is miniscule. I'm pretty sure that's the point people are making when they say we don't have a debt problem....of course we have a debt problem, but relative to the other problems we have its minor.

  4. #9649
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    Re: Economic News/Discussion

    ^^^ Good form, let's prepare to attack the messenger, and I see you have excuses already prepared.

    Here ya go.

    And here is the government's document.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragon24 View Post
    Cuz I'm willing to bet the devil is in the details in that $30 billion...like say the $51 billion that went to Sandy aid,
    $51 billion did not go to "Sandy Aid"... a bill was passed that included a small part for "Sandy Aid"... don't remember the exact number, but it was less than $10 billion.
    or the fact that we had a national election during that time frame.
    Why would that have any bearing? Same guy before and after the election.

    Don't get me wrong, I get what you are saying....its not enough....but lets see how it looks once the sequester and the debt ceiling deals really kick in.
    Not enough what? Spending reductions? There aren't any. Even in the sequester... nothing's "cut" except the rate of increase. Even in the evil Paul Ryan budget.

    And relative to the jobs problem we currently have, our debt problem is miniscule. I'm pretty sure that's the point people are making when they say we don't have a debt problem....of course we have a debt problem, but relative to the other problems we have its minor.
    You can't be serious. I know on a personal level you understand the seriousness of paying your debts... why that doesn't translate to your view of fiscal problems on a national level is beyond my understanding.
    Last edited by Dutchcedar; 03-17-2013 at 11:28 AM.

  5. #9650
    Joined
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    12,925

    Re: Economic News/Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragon24 View Post
    Got a source for that little gem of info? Cuz I'm willing to bet the devil is in the details in that $30 billion...like say the $51 billion that went to Sandy aid, or the fact that we had a national election during that time frame.

    Don't get me wrong, I get what you are saying....its not enough....but lets see how it looks once the sequester and the debt ceiling deals really kick in.

    And relative to the jobs problem we currently have, our debt problem is miniscule. I'm pretty sure that's the point people are making when they say we don't have a debt problem....of course we have a debt problem, but relative to the other problems we have its minor.
    The Debt Problem and Jobs Problem are interrelated - speaking of sequester and debt reduction - let us not forget the ticking debt bomb known as the ACA and 2014....

  6. #9651
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    Re: Economic News/Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchcedar View Post
    ^^^ Good form, let's prepare to attack the messenger, and I see you have excuses already prepared.

    Here ya go.

    And here is the government's document.

    $51 billion did not go to "Sandy Aid"... a bill was passed that included a small part for "Sandy Aid"... don't remember the exact number, but it was less than $10 billion. Why would that have any bearing? Same guy before and after the election.Not enough what? Spending reductions? There aren't any. Even in the sequester... nothing's "cut" except the rate of increase. Even in the evil Paul Ryan budget.

    You can't be serious. I know on a personal level you understand the seriousness of paying your debts... why that doesn't translate to your view of fiscal problems on a national level is beyond my understanding.
    This is one of the first results I get when I google "Sandy Aid Bill"

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...andy-aid-bill/

    And I'm dead serious. As dead serious as you were when you weren't complaining about the debt and rooting for deficit spending to help the economy recover...when things were (D)iffe(R)ent. We have debt that is slightly higher than than our total GDP. Translating that to a personal level, its the equivalent to borrowing approximately 1x your yearly gross salary. Most people manage and finance that much debt (and usually a lot more, sometimes 5-10x) through the majority of their lifetime. The thing that ends up killing them is when they lose their ability to pay their debt (i.e. they lose their job).

    As far as the sequester goes, people have been focusing on the stupid WH tours and whether or not people are going to be able to take a shit at the Grand Canyon, and what they should really be focusing on is all of the workers who are taking 20% pay cuts. But since they are useless government workers who are the source of all of our problems, nobody is covering that. Well they will once they see the long term effects.

    So yes, I think people losing their jobs/pay is a much bigger deal than our debt problem. And as Steve said, the two problems are interrelated...but the reasons why they are interrelated I'm guessing we will disagree on

  7. #9652
    Joined
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    California
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    26,273

    Re: Economic News/Discussion

    ^^^ Do go on about "focus".....





    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  8. #9653
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    Re: Economic News/Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragon24 View Post
    This is one of the first results I get when I google "Sandy Aid Bill"

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...andy-aid-bill/
    From yoour article:
    The biggest chunk of money is $16 billion for Housing and Urban Development Department community development block grants. Of that, about $12.1 billion will be shared among Sandy victims as well as those from other federally declared disasters in 2011-2013. The remaining $3.9 billion is solely for Sandy-related projects.

    More than $11 billion will go to the Federal Emergency Management Agency's disaster relief aid fund for shelter, restoring power and other storm-interrupted utility services and meeting other immediate needs arising from Sandy and other disasters. Another $10 billion is devoted to repairing New York and New Jersey transit systems and making them more resistant to future storms.
    Notice that the amount going directly to Sandy is lumped in with other stuff, except that $3.9 billion. The total going to directly to Sandy as understand it is less than $10 billion. Your article doesn't disprove that.

    For the record, I was complaining about the deficit in the Boosh years, you're clearly mistaken on that point.

    As to your equation of the national debt as it relates to borrowing on a personal level, you're also wrong. The national debt as it stands today does not bring us a new house. Its for the meals we already ate. Its akin to credit card debt, not home mortgages and automobiles. Any household that carries the equivalent of a year's income on credit card debt for stuff already consumed is in serious trouble and no, its not "most people" who manage finances that way. Its hardly anyone and everyone who does is a fool or intending to file bankruptcy.

    Additionally, the debt we toss around does not include obligations we still have to pay for and as I understand it, those come to many tens of trillions of dollars more. No problem. We can borrow our way to success.

    Again, are you serious?

  9. #9654
    Joined
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    California
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    26,273

    Re: Economic News/Discussion

    Hey dutch.. you are being a bit to fact heavy. How about a nice long discussion about gay immigration instead?



    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  10. #9655
    Joined
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    A Little South of Sanity
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    12,925

    Re: Economic News/Discussion

    ^ Or, perhaps Gun Control - that's another favorite distraction...

  11. #9656
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    Re: Economic News/Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter View Post
    Hey dutch.. you are being a bit to fact heavy. How about a nice long discussion about gay immigration instead?

    That's funny, but sadly, I could see a quota requirement for that coming from our always fair according to skin color and sexual preference (besides the staff at MSNBC or the president's campaign staff) liberal friends.

  12. #9657
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    Re: Economic News/Discussion

    And as an explanation to BD, in a way, you have a point. After we pay the credit bill, we will own a big building in Fremont with a Solyndra sign on it.

    Edit: Oops. Sorry. Sold it. Had to pay the rent. Got ten cents on the dollar. Sold the fifty dollar glass solar tubes for a buck each (well, broke most and disposed 'em, but got a buck each for 10% of 'em).

    INVESTING IN AMERICA!!! Obama, you're the best!!!

    j/k

  13. #9658
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    A Little South of Sanity
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    12,925

    Re: Economic News/Discussion

    ^ The latest Pork Barrel scam is $2 Billion towards moving our cars and trucks off of gasoline. The stupid SOB should instead give the money to NASA and simply wait for the technology trickle down...

    Guess nothing was learned from Solyndra - I guess it doesn't matter, only tax dollars we don't have...

  14. #9659
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    6,498

    Re: Economic News/Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchcedar View Post
    From yoour article:Notice that the amount going directly to Sandy is lumped in with other stuff, except that $3.9 billion. The total going to directly to Sandy as understand it is less than $10 billion. Your article doesn't disprove that.

    For the record, I was complaining about the deficit in the Boosh years, you're clearly mistaken on that point.

    As to your equation of the national debt as it relates to borrowing on a personal level, you're also wrong. The national debt as it stands today does not bring us a new house. Its for the meals we already ate. Its akin to credit card debt, not home mortgages and automobiles. Any household that carries the equivalent of a year's income on credit card debt for stuff already consumed is in serious trouble and no, its not "most people" who manage finances that way. Its hardly anyone and everyone who does is a fool or intending to file bankruptcy.

    Additionally, the debt we toss around does not include obligations we still have to pay for and as I understand it, those come to many tens of trillions of dollars more. No problem. We can borrow our way to success.

    Again, are you serious?
    I disagree fundamentally with your assertion that the national debt is all credit card debt.

    But I understand your points that it is not the same as a mortgage.

    It is more like an equity line of credit. When we spend the money on home improvements, we'll see the return come back two fold. When we blow it on things we don't need (food and oil subsidies, wars, foreign aid to countries that don't deserve it, Medicare and Social Security for folks who would have been means-tested out...I mean the list goes on and on) we end up screwed.

  15. #9660
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    Re: Economic News/Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragon24 View Post
    I disagree fundamentally with your assertion that the national debt is all credit card debt.
    I'll roll with that. To help me understand, give me an example of a tangible asset this country has as a part of our debt. Something we can pass on to those children of ours that are going to be stuck with the bill.

    I'm trying to come up with something, but ain't got nothin'.

    And I've got to correct you even though in general, you're on the right track. But home improvements hardly ever (read damn near never) yield a two fold return. I design 'em all the time... especially of late because new homes simply aren't being built... and unless you're capable and input your own labor and charge it as "free" (read: phony accounting), you simply aren't going to double your money on home improvements.

    Even the work we've done here, which was extensive and done frugally, with lots of favors and swaps and barters and my own sweat 'n tears... double? I wish. Ya have to do it because you want to and ya like it... there are easier ways to make a buck. Like most real estate improvements, inflation is a better friend than even the best of work.

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