Battlefield 3

[Activate: AMD]

Might be a bug but more likely it's the "server lag" I mention a lot. That's when from your enemy's perspective he hits several times (lots of hit markers) and you die but from your perspective you see just one damage indicator and then instant death. It's caused by differences in the timing of how the data packets move between your PC & the server and your enemy & the server. It's how you can get killed when you know you pulled back around a corner for cover or how TJ could get killed by a VSS in a tank because to his enemy he had not quite entered the tank before dying.

This problem existed in BC2. They increased the client data rate in a more recent BC2 patch to help with this and it did a bit but I doubt it will ever be completely eliminated. Don't get me wrong, I expect some of this type of "server lag". It's inevitable because the data packets DO need to move between the client & server. The problem in the Frostbite engine is that there is too much of it such that it's perceptible to players and it shouldn't be.

Having said all that I'm not blaming my poor performance on the server lag. Honestly I have no idea why I sometimes do so badly while others are 30/10. I've watched people enter a room with an UMP and kill 3 people (all who were facing him) without dying yet I lose most 1-on-1 engagements even when to me it often appears they don't even have their gun aimed at me when I start shooting at them. The only conclusion I can arrive at for myself is lack of skill and reflexes that are too slow.

I don't think what modru describing is lag. You're right about being around a corner in BC2, thats definitely lag. I've seen it in the beta even from the perspective of being the guy shooting.. that the kill occurs once the target is obscured from view. What modru is talking about is the damage being too high.

As far as the CPU usage goes, I'm seeing some oddness. 35-40% on 3-5 cores, not all 8 on my 4.0ghz i7-950 (4c w/ HT). I wasn't watching it super closely, but in game its definitely leaving a few of the cores nearly idle

[3dfxrain]

I got past my joining server problem on PC. I don't play it much. Some dudes playing it excessively already and pwning it up. Raged a bit about it. Quit. No shame in rage quitting to avoid further punishment in it.

[Lenny]

I don't think what modru describing is lag. You're right about being around a corner in BC2, thats definitely lag. I've seen it in the beta even from the perspective of being the guy shooting.. that the kill occurs once the target is obscured from view. What modru is talking about is the damage being too high.

I guess it would be accurate to say it's a combination of both the damage being too high and server lag. The shooter is obviously hitting him more than once since the SAW isn't a one shot kill but because of the server lag modru only perceives a single hit then death. This happens to me all the time. If the damage per bullet was lower the time from shooter first shot to victim death might be long enough to allow the victim to perceive more than one hit despite the server lag.

Btw, I'm careful to differentiate what I call "server lag" and regular lag so readers don't misunderstand me. Regular lag is a network problem like an overloaded server, dropped packets, etc which results in missed frames, rubber banding and such. Server lag is just a product of the net code in the game engine which introduces a certain amount of latency which if too high results in the player being able to perceive it which is of course undesirable.

[Sgt_Strider]

Does anyone here know what kind of cpu and gpu setup will enable a minimum of 30fps in either outdoor or indoor maps at 1920x1200 in medium setting? Every single performance preview that I have looked up shows only performance numbers for 1920x1200 at high settings. I'm planning to build an ITX setup and I don't have the luxury of being able to squeeze a top-end GPU in there.

[Activate: AMD]

I guess it would be accurate to say it's a combination of both the damage being too high and server lag. The shooter is obviously hitting him more than once since the SAW isn't a one shot kill but because of the server lag modru only perceives a single hit then death. This happens to me all the time. If the damage per bullet was lower the time from shooter first shot to victim death might be long enough to allow the victim to perceive more than one hit despite the server lag.

Btw, I'm careful to differentiate what I call "server lag" and regular lag so readers don't misunderstand me. Regular lag is a network problem like an overloaded server, dropped packets, etc which results in missed frames, rubber banding and such. Server lag is just a product of the net code in the game engine which introduces a certain amount of latency which if too high results in the player being able to perceive it which is of course undesirable.

latency, lag, rubberbanding? who cares what you call its its still lag how do you know whats causing it? I mean, i'm willing to believe its netcode related, but I think you're putting too much stock in this "server lag" stuff

Does anyone here know what kind of cpu and gpu setup will enable a minimum of 30fps in either outdoor or indoor maps at 1920x1200 in medium setting? Every single performance preview that I have looked up shows only performance numbers for 1920x1200 at high settings. I'm planning to build an ITX setup and I don't have the luxury of being able to squeeze a top-end GPU in there.

Hard to say right now. the performance "previews" are just that.. a "preview". This isn't final code so we can only guess what the final performance is going to really be like.

[Lenny]

latency, lag, rubberbanding? who cares what you call its its still lag how do you know whats causing it? I mean, i'm willing to believe its netcode related, but I think you're putting too much stock in this "server lag" stuff

I don't agree. They are definitely different things. The server lag is always present and even acknowledged by the developers hence the increase of the client data rate in that BC2 patch. Regular lag comes and goes. You don't see it at all on a well tuned server with no network issues.

[Lenny]

Hard to say right now. the performance "previews" are just that.. a "preview". This isn't final code so we can only guess what the final performance is going to really be like.

That's a good point. Performance in the beta is quite good IMO already and I suspect will even get better in the retail release with future video driver updates. Additionally frame rates on medium are significantly better than Ultra and medium still looks quite good in-game. This is all good news for gamers who can't afford a $300+ video card.

[Lenny]

Had a scare last night. Tom, Demedici and myself joined a server on which our stats appeared to have been reset back to day 1. It turned out to just be the server so we were relieved But it reminded me that it's just a beta and they could reset stats at any time if they wanted to and of course we already know stats we be reset after the beta ends. Probably best for me to start over anyway

[Sgt_Strider]

That's a good point. Performance in the beta is quite good IMO already and I suspect will even get better in the retail release with future video driver updates. Additionally frame rates on medium are significantly better than Ultra and medium still looks quite good in-game. This is all good news for gamers who can't afford a $300+ video card.

I looked at the screenshots that were posted on Hardocp and quite frankly I don't think the difference between medium and high will be big given that I'll be moving a lot, trying to survive, rather than notice the nuances between the settings.

I just wished Ryan would have tested medium settings at 1920x1200 and posted some numbers for people like me. This will help me decide on what my next build will be like.

[kbohip]

Hmm, after reading through the comments here, any plans I had of buying this game pre-release are now gone. I'll probably wait till November to pick this one up once I see how the final release plays.

[Activate: AMD]

That's a good point. Performance in the beta is quite good IMO already and I suspect will even get better in the retail release with future video driver updates. Additionally frame rates on medium are significantly better than Ultra and medium still looks quite good in-game. This is all good news for gamers who can't afford a $300+ video card.

Actually I think we may see the opposite. these pre-packaged vid settings could very well change between now and then. I'm not saying things won't become better optimized, but they may be keeping the differences low in order to reduce potential issues. It sounds like its very playable on current mid-range hardware, which is definitely good news. I suspect the upward potential on the graphics is even greater for the campaign

I don't agree. They are definitely different things. The server lag is always present and even acknowledged by the developers hence the increase of the client data rate in that BC2 patch. Regular lag comes and goes. You don't see it at all on a well tuned server with no network issues.

"regular lag", "server lag", who cares? All lag is a latency issue between server and client no matter where it comes from. If its a hiccup (high latency spike) you get rubberbanding, if its chronic (i.e. you're playing on a server far away or the netcode is bad) you get a consistent delay between server and client. What you're describing is nothing new, but you seem to be presenting it as if its a unique issue with frostbite. its not. As games get more complex we will see this issue all over the place. We've probably all noticed it more acutely in BC2 because we've put a crap ton of hours into it.. far more than any game in the last 2 years.

[modru2004]

* Fixed a bug where shooting at a moving enemy could cause more than the intended amount of damage.

as frogmeat posted ^^ thats probably what it was. i was sprinting when it happened. it didn't feel like lag.

evidently that's supposed to be a fix from open beta to live release. so that means it hasn't been fixed in the beta yet, and probably won't be till live.


also i think the nvidia beta drivers may have something to do with some of the mysterious no error crashes. i played for like 45 minutes with the old drivers i had. it squawked and warned me not to but i did so anyway. didn't have any real issues to speak of, there were a couple of anomalies here and there. nothing game breaking.

went to the beta drivers like it asked for and crashed to desktop 3 times in like 12 minutes. now thats not exactly thorough testing are any sort of conclusive proof. i just though it was interesting.

[kbohip]

* Fixed a bug where shooting at a moving enemy could cause more than the intended amount of damage.

as frogmeat posted ^^ thats probably what it was. i was sprinting when it happened. it didn't feel like lag.

evidently that's supposed to be a fix from open beta to live release. so that means it hasn't been fixed in the beta yet, and probably won't be till live.


also i think the nvidia beta drivers may have something to do with some of the mysterious no error crashes. i played for like 45 minutes with the old drivers i had. it squawked and warned me not to but i did so anyway. didn't have any real issues to speak of, there were a couple of anomalies here and there. nothing game breaking.

went to the beta drivers like it asked for and crashed to desktop 3 times in like 12 minutes. now thats not exactly thorough testing are any sort of conclusive proof. i just though it was interesting.

The beta drivers suck imo. I installed them and within a minute Deus Ex crashed on me.

[Lenny]

went to the beta drivers like it asked for and crashed to desktop 3 times in like 12 minutes. now thats not exactly thorough testing are any sort of conclusive proof. i just though it was interesting.

Some people are having problems with crashes while other never have one. Strange.

[Lenny]

Actually I think we may see the opposite. these pre-packaged vid settings could very well change between now and then. I'm not saying things won't become better optimized, but they may be keeping the differences low in order to reduce potential issues. It sounds like its very playable on current mid-range hardware, which is definitely good news. I suspect the upward potential on the graphics is even greater for the campaign

"regular lag", "server lag", who cares? All lag is a latency issue between server and client no matter where it comes from. If its a hiccup (high latency spike) you get rubberbanding, if its chronic (i.e. you're playing on a server far away or the netcode is bad) you get a consistent delay between server and client. What you're describing is nothing new, but you seem to be presenting it as if its a unique issue with frostbite. its not. As games get more complex we will see this issue all over the place. We've probably all noticed it more acutely in BC2 because we've put a crap ton of hours into it.. far more than any game in the last 2 years.

Only time will tell about performance in the retail game.

Regarding the lag, of course latency isn't unique to frostbite but BC2 is the first game in which it's been so prominent that for all practical purposes it IS new to me and everyone else who has complained about it. The reason I differentiate the two types of lag is because one is a function of the game engine/net code/whatever and the other is a result of network anomalies. I agree that game complexity is a big component of the server lag. In BC2 and now BF3 there is simply a ton of game variables that are being updated in real time and honestly I consider it quite a feat that we as players get such a realistic experience. Maybe the net code is superb and simply can't be made any more efficient. I just don't know but I do know that all the different ways the server lag presents itself (death around corners, TJ death by VSS in the tank, instant deaths, etc) is prominent enough that my brain sees it as something unusual and thus breaks down my psychological immersion into the game. I accept it as a fact but it doesn't make it any less annoying.

But anyway I'm not interested in debating the subject further. It is what is. I only mention it to help others who may not have been heavy BC2 players.