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  1. #46
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    Re: "Change" is the buzzword for every candidate so ...

    Quote Originally Posted by myv65 View Post
    Wiz,

    This is the primaries. Edwards needs to get votes. Not just any old votes. He needs votes from Democrats and he's competing against other Democratic candidates. Saying that he won't deal with corporations isn't liable to alienate too many of his potential voter base.

    So, how do you determine what is genuine and what is rhetoric tossed out there in an attempt by a candidate clearly in the #3 position?

    "Ooooh, look at me. I'm not going to talk to those big mean corporations."

    Those big mean corporations just so happen to provide jobs, lots and lots of jobs. You think the wages are too low? Well, maybe they are. Now maybe, just maybe, there is a link between the millions of undocumented workers we've got roaming around the country. Do you think it might be a good idea to formulate a system whereby companies could check the citizenship of potential hires and then tell those big mean corporations (and every other employer) 'use it or we're coming down hard on you'?"

    Ya see there are legitimate reasons to talk to the people with whom you have a problem.

    Now I suppose you might think, well, he could just create such a system and force employers to use it without talking to them. Sure, I suppose he could. It strikes me as wise, however, to talk to employers and hear what they have to say as they deal with the issues every day and might actually have something constructive to add. Talking to them does not require agreeing with anything they say. Not talking with them requires remaining ignorant about what they might have to say.

    The whole notion reminds me of typical 4-year old behavior. Yeah, let's have a President who goes off and pouts about anything that doesn't explicitly agree with his outlook of the world.
    Ya you really think the corporations give a shit about the american people, that's why so many of them are outsourcing their jobs overseas in order to maximize profit. When it comes down to it, that is their main goal, a goal that ends up trumping the true needs of the american people. If you can't grasp this fundamental fact that profit trumps everything for corporations, then you're not being realistic, and you will never understand how they are the enemy of the middle class

  2. #47
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    Re: "Change" is the buzzword for every candidate so ...

    Without profit, companies no longer exist. Without workers, companies no longer exist. It is to the company's benefit to get the most possible from their workers without driving them away. The best companies are those that are able to find workers whose interests match the company's needs. It tends to create a situation where the workers are naturally more productive and less apt to loathe their jobs.

    Bad management can kill a company. I've seen it first hand.

    It's naive to think it can't work the other way around. The auto industry is a poster child for this. You have a large quantity of workers who have not improved their productivity, yet demand to climb the standard-of-living ladder. It takes the same skill to put nuts on studs today that it took 50 years ago. Actually it often takes less skill as machines do a greater share of the work today. Yet the people who haven't gotten any better/more productive want more compensation. Management signed off on unsustainable packages in the past and has finally come to grips with reality.

    Now that the bills are coming due (retiree health benefits), the employees of today are suffering the consequences for the demands of workers and management of the previous era.

    Does this mean that the auto industry doesn't care about its employees? Apparently you feel that's the case. It's a myopic view point. The companies need the workers and vice versa. Good companies and good managers know this. Lousy employees and lousy managers both tend to get kicked to the curb. If it wasn't for the apalling compensation packages giving out to some high profile, very lousy managers I sincerely doubt the perception you have would be so prevalent.
    Last edited by myv65; 01-11-2008 at 06:21 PM.

  3. #48
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    Re: "Change" is the buzzword for every candidate so ...

    ^^^ You always describe things quite well, myv65.

  4. #49
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    Re: "Change" is the buzzword for every candidate so ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Computerwiz View Post
    Ya you really think the corporations give a shit about the american people, that's why so many of them are outsourcing their jobs overseas in order to maximize profit. When it comes down to it, that is their main goal, a goal that ends up trumping the true needs of the american people. If you can't grasp this fundamental fact that profit trumps everything for corporations, then you're not being realistic, and you will never understand how they are the enemy of the middle class
    Boo hoo. The unions have raised the pay scale to a point that overseas labor is the only viable alternative for some businesses to stay afloat and remain profitable. When the businesses make the responsible decision for their shareholders and relocate manufacturing to increase profits... the socialist crying begins. LOL. Guess what CW..? Their shareholders are Americans also.

    If you think Edwards gives a hoot about a "middle class" he knows absolutely nothing about.. and shares absolutely noting in common with.. it is you who needs a reality check.

    On a side note.. trial lawyers like Edwards are one of many reasons jobs are going overseas. See: frivolous lawsuits. Next time some dimwit spills coffee in their lap and gets a multi-million dollar settlement.. thank Edwards and his ilk. Where do you think that money comes from?? The settlement fairy? Nope.. Joe public (remember him? the one Edwards claims to be champion for) gets to foot the bill through higher prices on his Big Mack. But please... continue to preach on about who is ripping off Joe middle class... ignoring the "needs" of Americans... and who is all about the bottom dollar. Edwards has gotta love folks like you... much like PT Barnum did..

    Your ability to villianize big business and give Edwards and his ilk a pass as long as they promise to "redistribute wealth" is astonishing... but common on the left.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  5. #50
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    Re: "Change" is the buzzword for every candidate so ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Computerwiz View Post
    Ya you really think the corporations give a shit about the american people, that's why so many of them are outsourcing their jobs overseas in order to maximize profit. When it comes down to it, that is their main goal, a goal that ends up trumping the true needs of the american people. If you can't grasp this fundamental fact that profit trumps everything for corporations, then you're not being realistic, and you will never understand how they are the enemy of the middle class
    C-Wiz, I have to say that I think it's YOU that doesn't not understand the nature of modern management and labor. Of course managers want to maximize their profits, thats the only way they keep their jobs and make money to feed house and clothe their families. Maximizing profit also lowers prices, so that the middle and lower classes can exist at a higher standard of living than ever before. After decades of study, the majority of corps realize that part of that maximization involves keeping your employees happy, and on a path of self-improvement. A company that has happy (therefore more productive) employees that continue to grow in expertise can't help but be successful. Companies that "could care less" about their employees die under the costs of re-training, lawsuits, and mistakes based on incompetence. It may be true that some specific markets may specialize in untrained labor, and in those cases you're talking about temporary or part-time help, but those specialty markets are virtually never career-worthy jobs anyway.

    I don't know if you've been in the job market lately, but it is getting harder and harder to find a job. This is unrelated to Unemployment, it is because most corps have realized they are not hiring 'workers', they are taking someone into their family, and they want to make sure from the start that the potential employee will be a happy addition for all parties. So they do a lot of interviewing and checking up before committing the costs of hiring and training, in the hopes that they are in for a 5-20 year relationship. THAT's how you maximize profit in the workforce nowadays.

  6. #51
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    Re: "Change" is the buzzword for every candidate so ...

    asd

  7. #52
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    Re: "Change" is the buzzword for every candidate so ...

    Quote Originally Posted by mostholycerebus View Post
    , the majority of corps realize that part of that maximization involves keeping your employees happy, and on a path of self-improvement. A company that has happy (therefore more productive) employees that continue to grow in expertise can't help but be successful. Companies that "could care less" about their employees die under the costs of re-training, lawsuits, and mistakes based on incompetence. It may be true that some specific markets may specialize in untrained labor, and in those cases you're talking about temporary or part-time help, but those specialty markets are virtually never career-worthy jobs anyway.

    .
    The problem is that many of the companies, DON'T understand this, or maybe they don't believe this.

    How about go back historically to the days of the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire. Before this happened, women and children were forced to work 12 hour days. Worker welfare wasn't a priority, mangling of body parts in factorys wasn't uncommon - if that happened you were out of a job. Now we have government regulations that stop these things from happening. If it weren't for unions and certain regulations, companies would treat their employee's like shit if they could get away with it. Exactly what makes you think things have changed? What about all the corporations exploiting illegal immigrants for their desperation?? Walmart is a prime example of a callous corporation. (though they're trying to change this now it seems)

    I absolutely think that many corporations believe what you cited above. BUt I think it is fundamental that companies will run over, anything in their way that undermines their profits. They are not an ally of the middle class.
    Last edited by Computerwiz; 01-11-2008 at 08:22 PM.

  8. #53
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    Re: "Change" is the buzzword for every candidate so ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Computerwiz View Post
    The problem is that many of the companies, DON'T understand this, or maybe they don't believe this.

    How about go back historically to the days of the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire. Before this happened, women and children were forced to work 12 hour days. Worker welfare wasn't a priority, mangling of body parts in factorys wasn't uncommon - if that happened you were out of a job. Now we have government regulations that stop these things from happening. If it weren't for unions and certain regulations, companies would treat their employee's like shit if they could get away with it. Exactly what makes you think things have changed? I cite walmart as an example as a prime example of a callous corporation. (though they're trying to change this now it seems)
    Are you seriously trying to compare the conditions that led up to the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire to the way Wallymart treat it's employees??
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  9. #54
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    Re: "Change" is the buzzword for every candidate so ...

    I was giving examples to prove how callous and uncaring corporations are about their workers and the middle class. If you look at it historically, when there were no regulations, such as child labor laws, you can see for yourself how fundamentally true this is.

    Wal-mart is just a modern example of this. It's not exactly the same, because we have come along way in ensuring companies don't get away with certain things. But that doesn't mean they're any less corrupt.
    Last edited by Computerwiz; 01-11-2008 at 08:35 PM.

  10. #55
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    Re: "Change" is the buzzword for every candidate so ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Computerwiz View Post
    I was giving examples to prove how callous and uncaring corporations are about their workers and the middle class. If you look at it historically, when there were no regulations, such as child labor laws, you can see for yourself how fundamentally true this is.

    Wal-mart is just a modern example of this. It's not exactly the same, because we have come along way in ensuring companies don't get away with certain things. But that doesn't mean they're any less corrupt.
    You make some pretty broad and baseless accusations. You seem to think any company that does what is in it's best financial interests makes them "callous... uncaring and corrupt". Sorry.. running a successful business does not entail bankrupting that very same business by catering to every employee's whim. Just have a look at where that type of thinking has gotten the American auto makers. The unions have pretty much guaranteed they will never be able to be competitive using US labor. Which is exactly why Wally is doing their best to keep the unions out. And rightfully so.

    The sense of entitlement by some employees is far more "callous, uncaring and corrupt" IMHO. Don't like working at Wally's.. go work somewhere else. I'm sure there is an "at will" clause in every one of their employees contracts.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  11. #56
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    Re: "Change" is the buzzword for every candidate so ...

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter View Post
    You make some pretty broad and baseless accusations. You seem to think any company that does what is in it's best financial interests makes them "callous... uncaring and corrupt". Sorry.. running a successful business does not entail bankrupting that very same business by catering to every employee's whim. Just have a look at where that type of thinking has gotten the American auto makers. The unions have pretty much guaranteed they will never be able to be competitive using US labor. Which is exactly why Wally is doing their best to keep the unions out. And rightfully so.

    The sense of entitlement by some employees is far more "callous, uncaring and corrupt" IMHO. Don't like working at Wally's.. go work somewhere else. I'm sure there is an "at will" clause in every one of their employees contracts.

    Oh poor corporations. It's not like years and years of heinous treatment could have made unions a necessary force to more evenly distribute the power. Before Unions the people had no bargaining power. Go back to the day without government regulations, without unions, and you could compare the conditions and welfare to that of a sweat shop in a third world country
    And btw, I'm not saying unions are perfect either, but there's a reason for their existence

  12. #57
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    Re: "Change" is the buzzword for every candidate so ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Computerwiz View Post
    Oh poor corporations. It's not like years and years of heinous treatment could have made unions a necessary force to more evenly distribute the power. Before Unions the people had no bargaining power. Go back to the day without government regulations, without unions, and you could compare the conditions and welfare to that of a sweat shop in a third world country
    And btw, I'm not saying unions are perfect either, but there's a reason for their existence
    Unions and necessary should not even be used in the same sentence. The only thing unions seem good at any more is lining their and politicians pockets and putting businesses under with unreasonable demands. Thus the mass exodus of manufacturing jobs overseas. They can cry me a river.. they brought this on themselves. They had their purpose some time ago. Now labor laws do their jobs just fine... they need to go away.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  13. #58
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    Re: "Change" is the buzzword for every candidate so ...

    And btw, I'm not saying unions are perfect either, but there's a reason for their existence
    I know one reason which goes along big time with change! reason #1 So they can take our money and give nothing in return.I have been in the labor union, The teamsters union,and recently the Communication workers of America Union and can honestly say all were useless except for stealing my money. I am now Union free and with one of, if not the largest Communications companies in the world and they treat me better than any union company I have ever been with period.

  14. #59
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    Re: "Change" is the buzzword for every candidate so ...

    Quote Originally Posted by /\/\adGamer View Post
    I know one reason which goes along big time with change! reason #1 So they can take our money and give nothing in return.I have been in the labor union, The teamsters union,and recently the Communication workers of America Union and can honestly say all were useless except for stealing my money. I am now Union free and with one of, if not the largest Communications companies in the world and they treat me better than any union company I have ever been with period.
    I was a member of the teamsters some years ago... had to be in order to get the job. Unions suck.. period. They "take your money for the greater good"... sound familiar?
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  15. #60
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    Re: "Change" is the buzzword for every candidate so ...

    ^^^ Yes, I also love how the dems gather like vultures to collect their union cuts and get the all mighty union endorsments.

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