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  1. #31
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    Re: Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Heron Final!

    Quote Originally Posted by Meridian View Post
    Jackal

    Here's a test: download a copy of Nethack from the main site. That is, for each OS use an non-packaged version. Although I suppose it could be argued that the Windows .exe version is "packaged". Now install it. See how much easier it is in Windows? That's main reason why Linux fails against M$: installing new programs. Until Linux distros can agree a common format for package installation that a) they all agree on, no matter how small the distro, and b) can be run from a GUI without issue, then Linux will remain a toy for geeks. Non-computer geeks (that's 95%+ of those using computers) want everything to run via the GUI, so the command line is a complete no-no. When a Linux distro appears where you can't even get a command line, then it's ready for the mainstream and a head-to-head with M$. But not before. It pains me, but it's true.


    M
    I would not presume to debate that simply clicking a link on a webpage, or inserting a cd/dvd, installs the package for you, is easier than typing a three or four word phrase into a terminal session.

    We could, however, open the entire open source vs. proprietary can of worms though. Open Source is not distributed on CD, or coders are not paid to design installer packages, too much money in a "free" environment.

    Hense you "pay" for that copy roxio, or nero (media costs money, programmers cost money, advertising costs money, packaging costs money, distribution costs money.....you get the point), vs. d/l and having an extra step or two for the "free" software.

    Hell we could even debate economics, at what point will it cost too much, and users are "forced" to learn how to install a package on linux?

    If there were a place to obtain "free" gasoline (but I had to pour it in by the pint), I can tell you which line I'd be in......THE LONG ONE!!!

  2. #32
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    Re: Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Heron Final!

    I understand where you are coming from Don, but times they are changing. The latest Windows was not acceptable to many computer users, and the trend with malware etc is only making people more frustrated.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrNovi View Post
    To follow up on what Meridian said, the very thing that makes Linux so appealing to the Power Users is one of the main reasons that make it unappealing to the masses and prevents it from going mainstream. Too many options and too many differences between the different distros. It's 1984 all over again. Some of you older guys will remember all of the different GUI shells (GEM, GeoWorks, DesqViewX, Central Point Desktop, and Tandy DeskMate among others) competing with Windows for their share of the market. Windows eventually won out, not because it was better (in fact it was really one of the worst), but because of better marketing strategy and eventually became the STANDARD. Linux has no chance of becoming the standard because there are just too many different types of Linux that aren't compatible with each other in many ways.
    But standards can be bad especially when there is a monopoly. When there is only one company to rely upon then they control how things are done.

    When it comes to real POWER Word Processing Professionals, the majority of them use WordPerfect. Nothing against OpenOffice which is a fine Word Processor, but it isn't even in the same ball park with WordPerfect. Since there is no WP for Linux that will actually run on current releases of Linux and WP doesn't run very well under Wine that shuts a good portion of that group out. I'm in daily contact with some of these people who would like nothing more than to switch to Linux, but they absolutely refuse to give up WP for the simple reason that they CAN'T do what they need with OpenOffice or any of the other Linux alternatives. I know that many of you will think that this is a small segment of computer users but it is really quite substantial. Many of these people are still using WP5.1 for Dos, WP 6.0/1 for Dos or Windows, or WP7 for Windows and haven't seen the need to downgrade to a newer version since the mid 90's (like Windows newer releases of WP have added a lot of gimmicks but few useful capabilities). Somebody find a way to run WP under Linux and you'll have a large number of knowledgeable Linux converts, but that just won't happen. Corel tried and couldn't do it even when they came out with their own version of Linux designed specifically for WP. And while the Corel people might not have been the sharpest knives in the drawer, the users themselves were quite adept at configuring and running Linux.
    Give it time, there is the free office suite with Ubuntu to get folks off the ground, and once Linux is more widely accepted then there will be plenty of choices.

    Another nail in the coffin for Linux going mainstream is support. If you have a problem with your hardware you can contact the manufacturer for assistance IF you are running Windows. If you are running Linux most will say that their hardware isn't officially supported. Until that changes, Linux doesn't stand a chance. If you purchase a Wireless card for you computer to get online you insert the disk, install the driver, answer the prompts and you are online. All well and good IF you are running Windows. If you are running Linux you have to take that computer somewhere where you can get it online via a hard wired cable connection, attempt to download the necessary software and drivers, install them, then configure them WITH OUT any prompts. When you call your ISP for assistance they will more than likely tell you that they don't know how to configure it under Linux. If you call the Wireless Card manufacturer they will tell you that their product isn't supported. And you want to tell me that Linux is ready to go mainstream? Yeah, right.
    Check out Dell, they are selling computers with Linux, you can bet they offer support. There are several wireless cards compatible with Ubuntu, one just needs to do some research. Folks just need to learn how to do a few things for themselves, or take it to the local shop. Or install the card when you load Linux.


    Linux is a niche OS that works quite well as long as it stays in that niche. Take it out of that niche and it's next to useless to the average computer user.
    Yes it does fill a niche, a new one. Folks are sick of malware and all the trash that ruins many a MS install every minute, corporate greed, being told what they can do, all the price tiers, COA confusion, etc. The time has come for people to take matters into their own hands and make choices.

    Don

  3. #33
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    Re: Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Heron Final!

    Quote Originally Posted by MrNovi View Post
    To follow up on what Meridian said, the very thing that makes Linux so appealing to the Power Users is one of the main reasons that make it unappealing to the masses and prevents it from going mainstream. Too many options and too many differences between the different distros. It's 1984 all over again. Some of you older guys will remember all of the different GUI shells (GEM, GeoWorks, DesqViewX, Central Point Desktop, and Tandy DeskMate among others) competing with Windows for their share of the market. Windows eventually won out, not because it was better (in fact it was really one of the worst), but because of better marketing strategy and eventually became the STANDARD. Linux has no chance of becoming the standard because there are just too many different types of Linux that aren't compatible with each other in many ways.
    That's actually a valid point and there have been attempts to create a unified Linux desktop, but the concepts and principles of choice and flexibility are so ingrained within the Linux community that it's hard to unify anything. Forcing one standardized desktop onto the existing base of Linux users would likely cause WWIII and you'd only ever manage to please 40% of folks at best as no one desktop has a majority market share.

    The thing in these discussions that we all seem to forget is that Linux doesn't have an agenda to be the dominant desktop OS. Linux isn't a corporation driven by market share and bottom line results.

    I've been using Linux on my desktop for a long time now and I have absolutely no trouble getting my day to day work done. I guess I'm typical of your average user in that I mainly use the web and email, plus a few office apps and occasionally The Gimp for playing with graphics. In fact I find more and more I'm moving away from OS-centric applications and using web-based apps that don't care what OS I use as long as I have a web browser.

    I watch youtube when I'm bored and I don't play games (yes, the majority of home PC users aren't gamers!). I even do some high end stuff (for me) and master DVD video's from my PVR digital recorder (all from the command line apart from one Java applet I use). Sure, I do some other stuff too that you wouldn't be interested in, but my point it that once the system is set up and installed, I use the same apps as anyone else on a daily basis and Firefox/Thunderbird/OpenOffice are identical on both Windows and Linux so the OS is becoming irrelevant - it should merely be something that facilitates you to work, not something that controls your PC experience.

    I want an OS that just allows me to get on with my work. I don't want an OS that can be infected with malware or needs to be reformatted every six months because it grinds to a halt, or one that doesn't give me full control of my PC. It's my PC, not some company's in Redmond. When I buy a laptop, I want an OS that will allow me to use it for work and connect to my work's domain when I need to, not one that's crippled and I have to pay extra for features that should come as standard (as are actually free from the competition).

  4. #34
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    Re: Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Heron Final!

    Quote Originally Posted by MrNovi View Post
    Linux is a niche OS that works quite well as long as it stays in that niche. Take it out of that niche and it's next to useless to the average computer user.

    Don
    i fix pc's for a living. yes, they are all windows machines. but to make a statement like that is just ignorant. i have yet to meet someone that cant run a linux machine once i show them the basics. sure, they cant install it, but if they could install windows, they wouldnt be calling me. you need to stop drinking the negative kool-aid. when newbs read a response like yours, it's no wonder some people are "afraid" to try linux.

    secondly, linux has been taken out of its "niche". have you not noticed how many governments, school systems, manufacturers, (Dell, HP, Asus, etc.) have embraced linux?
    read the news once in a while.
    Ubuntu User #15003
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  5. #35
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    Re: Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Heron Final!

    ummmm, yeah, well this new ubuntu is pretty good...
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  6. #36
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    Re: Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Heron Final!

    Quote Originally Posted by culinist View Post
    ummmm, yeah, well this new ubuntu is pretty good...
    i agree. it still needs a bunch of updates to work out the kinks, but i think this version is going to rock.
    Ubuntu User #15003
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  7. #37
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    Re: Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Heron Final!

    Any XP users out there using vmware to run ubuntu? I thought i had a good link for getting vmware tools to be installed, but it unfortunately didn't work.
    Still, 8.04 feels much snappier than 7.10.
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  8. #38
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    Re: Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Heron Final!

    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonEclipse View Post
    I'm a Linux n00b and I was able to install 7.10 without problem.

    The only problems I've had was trying to transfer files from an older HD
    using a USB adapter.

    It's an adjustment process, and it's MUCh better than MS.

    CE
    It's more different than better. You learn to leverage the benefits of both OS's. One simply needs to use one OS for one set of tasks, and so on. I like command-line OS but GUI has its benefits too.

    edit: i found a good starter guide for 8.04:
    http://linuxondesktop.blogspot.com/2...buntu-804.html
    Last edited by chrispycrunch; 04-30-2008 at 11:15 AM.
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  9. #39
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    Re: Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Heron Final!

    Essentially Linux is the same bind as most minority pastimes: it is divided between the elitists and the evangelicals.

    A noisy proportion of the users want Linux to stay a minority sport. They understand it, and know that most people do not. This enables them to feel that they "know something you don't" - a common human feeling. Most of these people feel that Linux should stay hard-core to put off "smatterers" (to quote Isaac Newton). They feel that the command-line (for instance) separates the real Linux users from the wannabes. They like the customisability, the quirks, the weird ways; but most importantly they like being part of a small club, and they want it to stay small.

    But as with all small clubs, there are other who want the club to get bigger. For some this is just spreading the message, but for those with a financial stake - in this case, the distro makers - it's a matter of survival. For these people there is no option but to make Linux easier to use, because the vast majority of people who don't already use it are people who don't know much about computers: those who do, already use it, or have at least tried it.

    So which way should Linux go? If you are an evangelical then what I said earlier stands: it has to be easy for a complete newbie to understand and use. That doesn't mean making all distros alike, but it does mean at the very least agreeing a common, simple method to install software that does not use the command line. If you think the command line is vital to Linux then you, I'm afraid, are an elitist. That's not a criticism, just an observation. There's not right-or-wrong here, there never is in these situation - just where do you want to go?


    M

  10. #40
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    Re: Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Heron Final!

    First time I ever tried Kubuntu was today with a Gutsy Live CD --> updated to 8.04 hardy.

    I have to say, I like it a LOT better than Fedora!

    Huge Pros for Ubuntu:

    -Envy NG

    -Universal Repository
    Last edited by AMDAthlonguy; 04-30-2008 at 08:19 PM.

  11. #41
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    Re: Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Heron Final!

    Seems to be a rabid group of Linux hobbiest here - I have always pondered what if...

    What if a Linux version was made and packaged that did "everything that windows does". By that I mean play current games, plug and play hardware, intuitive control panels - what ever it is that Windows users would like to see implemented as well as many Linux user.

    What would be the value of such a thing?

    I mean, if someone called up the intrawebs and said "hey, I have a Linux OS that does everything you want it to do all you gotta pay is ___."

    What would you be willing to pay?

    Would it matter if it was packaged by The Linux Friends Corporation? Or maybe something like ATI presents Linux_vXT1.0. Haha what about EA/Madden Linux-2009 with a pic of Farve on the box?

    Hell, what if the devil signed on the dotted line, and we get "Microsoft Linux for $99 or Windows Vista ME for $125? Or vice versa, Linux for $120 fully supported, or you could pick up what ever Windows is out for $99?

    I know, if too far off into the off topic track ignore me - but I have noticed that a lot of Linux users are very into it and with so many of you here, I have always wondered....would corporate backing kill the Linux bandwagon?

    -=M=-

    PS - as a side note, my only experiance with Linux is what is on my Wifes Asus EEE. It is clean and snappy. I went as far as putting Win XP on it and found that while the XP has more options out of the box, it is slower and quirky. My wife had me restore it back to Linux.
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  12. #42
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    Re: Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Heron Final!

    Your wife is a smart woman !

  13. #43
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    Re: Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Heron Final!

    Quote Originally Posted by mpulliam View Post
    Seems to be a rabid group of Linux hobbiest here - I have always pondered what if...

    What if a Linux version was made and packaged that did "everything that windows does". By that I mean play current games, plug and play hardware, intuitive control panels - what ever it is that Windows users would like to see implemented as well as many Linux user.

    What would be the value of such a thing?

    I mean, if someone called up the intrawebs and said "hey, I have a Linux OS that does everything you want it to do all you gotta pay is ___."

    What would you be willing to pay?

    Would it matter if it was packaged by The Linux Friends Corporation? Or maybe something like ATI presents Linux_vXT1.0. Haha what about EA/Madden Linux-2009 with a pic of Farve on the box?

    Hell, what if the devil signed on the dotted line, and we get "Microsoft Linux for $99 or Windows Vista ME for $125? Or vice versa, Linux for $120 fully supported, or you could pick up what ever Windows is out for $99?

    I know, if too far off into the off topic track ignore me - but I have noticed that a lot of Linux users are very into it and with so many of you here, I have always wondered....would corporate backing kill the Linux bandwagon?

    -=M=-

    PS - as a side note, my only experiance with Linux is what is on my Wifes Asus EEE. It is clean and snappy. I went as far as putting Win XP on it and found that while the XP has more options out of the box, it is slower and quirky. My wife had me restore it back to Linux.
    Personally I think it would be great if MS released a version of Linux and abandoned their Vista bloatware. To me, the idea makes a lot of sense. After all, Apple essentially did it, Red Hat makes millions from selling open source software, so why not Microsoft? Also, as Microsoft has a patent agreement with Novell, and Novell now legally owns the rights to UNIX, the way is clear for Microsoft Linux without fear of prosecution

    How much would I pay for Microsoft Linux... $0.00. I would consider paying for a support contract though if I needed it such as Red Hat offer, but I'm not going to pay for free software without substantial added value.

  14. #44
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    Thumbs up Re: Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Heron Final!

    Quote Originally Posted by supercat View Post
    Your wife is a smart woman !

    yeah she is, hehe

  15. #45
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    Re: Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Heron Final!

    Quote Originally Posted by mpulliam View Post
    Seems to be a rabid group of Linux hobbiest here -
    PS - as a side note, my only experiance with Linux is what is on my Wifes Asus EEE. It is clean and snappy. I went as far as putting Win XP on it and found that while the XP has more options out of the box, it is slower and quirky. My wife had me restore it back to Linux.
    Funny, another guy had to get rid of linux because the wireless access was acting up on his linux installation. Wife wasn't happy about that.

    I'm impressed with the EEE. I'm more impressed with the simplicity of linux, esp. for users who know how to read stickies, and who use google for help. My tag line is 'why re-invent the wheel' when a solution for some linux issue has been found.
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