Need Advanced Memory Timing Explained

[Colt1911]

Hi, I'm need some help

ASRock 775Dual-VSTA
Prescott 2M 630 3.0G
2x1G Ballistix BL12864AA663.16FD2
NV GF6800GT
SATA hard drive
IDE CDROM
Floppy (people still use these?)

I previously had an ASRock 775V88 on this box, but the cheap SATA connectors broke off forcing me to buy a PCI SATA card. The board absolutely HATED it and would crash/lockup/freeze/BSOD frequently. I didnt want to upgarde the vid card on this machine, so I thought the 775Dual-VSTA would be a good inexpensive 'fix' to my problem. Well it did solve the crash/lockup issues. Anyway, I had been using some Wintec DDR 400 PC3200 2x512, and I found I could get 2x1G Ballistix for only $30. Timing is 3-3-3-15 No brainer right? (The DDR 400 had performed flawlesly All [Auto] Dual channel CR2)

Get it installed, and I'm really busy. Then Crash BSOD. Uggg. happened again, then again, all while heavy memory intense spplications open, i.e. a dozen or so IE plus OE, windows explorer, and winamp. So I had to started doing some BIOS testing.

1. With the DRAM frequency setting to [Auto] it automatically sets it at 400MHz regardless of any other setting. FSB 200

2. With the Flexibility option set to [Disabled] I get errors no matter what, unless its set to single channel manually.

The RAM is 667Mhz Qualified, but when setting the frequency setting manually I always get errors. Just to make sure the RAM wasnt defective, I had it tested in a memory tester.Hard to believe I would get errors from this board with almost all settings on auto.

So, back to square one, and tweaking with theses settings. The more I get to looking, the more I feel out of touch because there is alot of these timing settings I have no clue about.

BTW I am using memtest+, and all the errors are on test 5 and 6. The errors are all above 1024M telling me that it is the timing in the second stick. Most often the errors are in the last 20M at around %99 on test 5.

Anyway, there is a good deal of settings for the RAM.

DRAM Frequency [Auto]
Flexibility Option [Disabled]
DRAM CAS# [Auto]
DRAM Bank Interleave [Disabled]
Precharge to Active (Trp) [Auto]
Active to Precharge (Tras) [Auto]
Active to CMD (Trcd) [Auto]
REF to ACT / REF to REF (Trfc)[Auto]
ACT(0) to ACT (1) (Trrd) [Auto]
Read to Precharge (Trtp) [Auto]
Write to Read CMD (Twtr) [Auto]
Write Recovery Time (Twr) [Auto]
DRAM Bus Selection [Auto]
DRAM Command Rate [2T]
DRAM Voltage [Auto]

Advanced Memory Configuration (The undocumented settings)

DRAM Drv DQS [Auto] (these seem to be address ranges)
DRAM Drv CS [Auto]
DRAM Drv [Auto]
DRAM Drv [Auto]

CLKBuf DDRA Group Delay [Auto] (These seem to be timing delays from 1x50 to 14x50 in pico seconds)
CLKBuf DDRB Group Delay [Auto]
CLKBuf FB_OutA Delay [Auto]
CLKBuf FB_OutB Delay [Auto]

CLKBuf DDRA Drv [3x]
CLKBuf DDRB Drv [3x]
CLKBuf FB_OutA Drv [4x]
CLKBuf FB_OutA Drv [4x] (I think this is a typo. should be 'CLKBuf FB_OutB Drv' even stranger the options are 1x,2x,4x,3x on both those 3 and 4 being out of order on both the last items:P)

I'm sure my solution is somewhere in these settings, but with great descriptions like 'Use this to set the blah blah blah, or use [Auto] to set the timings by SPD' You dont get a real good idea of what each setting does. The traditional settings I understand CAS, tRCD, tRP, tRAS, TRFC etc, but the ones under advanced I dont, and may well be specific 'labels' to this manufacturer/board. I have seen that sort of thing often in the past where different manufacturers call the same things by different labels.

So, I could search all night on the net to no avail, but I'm old, fat, and lazy Personally, I find it best when you dont know something, just ask.

So, to anyone out there knowledgeable, what the heck are all these settings under 'Advanced Memory Configuration'?

CPUZ reports the following under SPD

Frequency-------266---266---333
CAS-------------3.0---4.0---5.0
tRCD------------3-----3-----3
tRP-------------12----12----15
tRAS------------3-----3-----3
tRC-------------16----16----20
Command Rate----2T
Voltage---------1.8---1.8---1.8


Thanks,
Colt

PS: I actually wrote this a few days ago, while writing, the computer crashed, an corrupted all my boot records on my primary drive. I had to install windows on an old drive, and run a recovery program to get my data. Man what a pain.

[Poci]

CPUZ reads the 5 main latencys

Just manually input the rated ones.If your not too into tweaking just leave the rest @ auto.

But if you want to tweak just go one by one testing stability simple as that.

[uddarts]

have you tested each stick individually with memory86?



ud

[Colt1911]

yup tested each stick individually with no problems. Turns out if I set everything on [auto] except trfc on 4, it was stable. Ran memtest+ for 6 hours, no problem. All was well for about 4 days. Then crash, crash, crash out of nowhere. Tried setting trfc to 5 (max) with no luck.

So, I have RMA'd these sticks to Micron. I have never had computer parts go bad so quick. From now on I'll be buying Corsair, as I picked up a couple of sticks for another machine last week, and there pretty sweet.

Anyway, while I dont really overclock, I would still like to know what the advanced timing settings mean. Its nice to squeeze a little more performance if you can.

If anyone knows what these settings are, please define them here.

Thanks for the replies,
Colt

[Poci]

Micron was good back in the day,havent heard too much about them lately.

You want reliable memory stick with kingston or mushkin

[Colt1911]

I've never used Mushkin, but they seem to be highly regarded. I usually pay well for good memory, as its a critical component. For awhile I think Kingston was the gold standard, though I have heard a few bad stories about their 'valuram' line.

Years ago I would get these customers that would insist on buying the least expensive parts, including RAM. Strangely, they never had any problems I'm aware of. Of course these were not meant as high performance machines anyway. Usually, I just buy a brand name from a high quality manufacturer, but with so many manufacturers getting chincy, I guess I have to research everything now.

Anyone know what these advanced timings are?

Thanks for the replies
Colt

[Mjölnir]

Drisler's Memory FAQ goes into good detail on these timings. It's in the Memory Forum Stickies.

As for Kingston and bad stories, that'd be purely anecdotal. I think you'll find more people with good stories than bad, which reflects the reputation that the Kingston brand has earnt. Some anecdotal evidence of Kingston's good performance - my business almost exclusively uses Kingston and Corsair RAM. Between those two (for their Value range), I get more DOA's and failures by Corsair than Kingston, and even then that's probably only about a 5% failure rate.

As for the cheapest parts, occasionally I've gone through batches of RAM where nearly half of the RAM sticks died early or were DOA but the ones that went out worked flawlessly. These days I won't touch generics (except for a couple of brands) and with the price of DDR2 HyperX or TwinX, it's not worth bothering with the Value stuff. However it's a bit different with DDR1...

[Colt1911]

Agreed Mjölnir, with the price of DDR2 buying generic makes no sense.

Anytime a company breaks into the budget market, there are bound to be issues, after all you really do get what you pay for. Just look a Celerons, the originals had the math co-processor intentionally disabled, and were under-performers. As for Kingston's valuram line problems being anecdotal, I disagree, anytime you take from bin 3, or bin 4, you are sure to have problems. This is true in any manufacturing industry.

Thanks for the link to Drisler's FAQ, I read that some time back. I looked again, and didnt see anything related to the advanced timings I am interested in. I'm starting to think no one outside of the manufacturer does. Who, by the way, wont resond to emails. Yeah, wont be buying from them again. Like I said, you get what you pay for. But as I also said, I wasnt quite ready to let go of that $300 graphics card either. This 'upgrade' board was my soulition, $30 and use all my existing hardware, or $1,000 for a complete overhaul. With the (then) upcoming release of the i7 I decided to hold off. Now, I'm thinking I will overhaul in the spring.

Not good to hear about the Corsair return rate, think I will look into Mushkin.

If anyone knows what these timings are please detail in this thread. Info would be most appreciated.

Advanced Memory Configuration

DRAM Drv DQS [Auto] (these seem to be address ranges)
DRAM Drv CS [Auto]
DRAM Drv [Auto]
DRAM Drv [Auto]

CLKBuf DDRA Group Delay [Auto] (These seem to be timing delays from 1x50 to 14x50 in pico seconds)
CLKBuf DDRB Group Delay [Auto]
CLKBuf FB_OutA Delay [Auto]
CLKBuf FB_OutB Delay [Auto]

CLKBuf DDRA Drv [3x]
CLKBuf DDRB Drv [3x]
CLKBuf FB_OutA Drv [4x]
CLKBuf FB_OutA Drv [4x]

Thanks,
Colt

PS: This is Crucials RMA performance: Sent the 25th UPS 2nd Day, signed for the 28th (delayed 1 day for Thanksgiving). Received confirmation email Dec 2nd. Today is Dec 7th, didn't ship this week I'm aware of, even though when I got the RMA, I also got a replacement #. A full week and a guy cant stick the memory in a tester, and make the entry in the computer so shipping will send them. CS response "Well we have thousands of RMA's to process, the tech dept is a few days behind right now." Yeah, just what the customer wants to hear "thousands of people are sending back our product" Ok, granted all are surely not bad (I hope), but they way they made it sound on a mass scale, and all the reading I've done on bad Ballistix memory doesn't sit well with me.

[Poci]

I've never used Mushkin, but they seem to be highly regarded. I usually pay well for good memory, as its a critical component. For awhile I think Kingston was the gold standard, though I have heard a few bad stories about their 'valuram' line.

Years ago I would get these customers that would insist on buying the least expensive parts, including RAM. Strangely, they never had any problems I'm aware of. Of course these were not meant as high performance machines anyway. Usually, I just buy a brand name from a high quality manufacturer, but with so many manufacturers getting chincy, I guess I have to research everything now.

Anyone know what these advanced timings are?

Thanks for the replies
Colt

Valueline.....

Exactly

Kingston HyperX all the way especially if you want to OC

As for the advanced timings like I said,just input 5 main timings @rated defaults and rest leave @ auto.
Look on memory sticker to find out what rated timings are

[Colt1911]

Thanks for the info on Kingston. I will look into Hyper X, though I'm not into OC.

Yes, [Auto] seems to be the standard because of SPD.

But can NO ONE define what these advanced timings mean??

Colt

[Colt1911]

Man I need help. Got the DDR2 in today unanounced. Prepped the system to run memtest awhile. Rebooted, and let memtest run with the DDR1 I have in the system, low and behold errors :P Crap! So before I put the DDR2 in I want to toy with the timings. I set everything on [Auto], then tried everything with the max slowest timings, and some of the Advanced Timings too. No Love, still errors. but one very interesting feature is, the errors are always at different addresses, most of the time on different tests 1-7, but ALWAYS the error bits are 00200000. Everytime, no matter what address, or test. I'm using Memtest+ 2.01 from a floppy.

I have had some (unexplained BSOD) crashes in windows in the last week aswell, so I feel the tests are accurate. I didnt make the connection at first because this DDR1 has been stable for awhile. Please note, I am using DDR1, I have not installed the Ballistix DDR2 replacements yet.

If anyone knows what the advanced timings mean, please detail them here.

Thanks
Colt

[Poci]

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/26

[Colt1911]

Fascinating article, but it doesnt help me. Let me reiterate what I need.

I NEED TO KNOW WHAT THESE SETTINGS ARE:

DRAM Drv DQS [Auto] (these are address ranges)
DRAM Drv CS [Auto]
DRAM Drv [Auto]
DRAM Drv [Auto]

CLKBuf DDRA Group Delay [Auto] (These are timing delays from 1x50 to 14x50 in pico seconds)
CLKBuf DDRB Group Delay [Auto]
CLKBuf FB_OutA Delay [Auto]
CLKBuf FB_OutB Delay [Auto]

CLKBuf DDRA Drv [3x]
CLKBuf DDRB Drv [3x]
CLKBuf FB_OutA Drv [4x]
CLKBuf FB_OutA Drv [4x]

Obviously you can see there are NO listings above about CAS, RAS, TRFC ect.

Thanks for the posts, but directing me to BASIC timing tutorials is NOT what I'm after. I have read plenty on basic memory timing, and there is plenty of info around the net about the subject. I have not been able to find any appreciable information about these settings around, or I most certainly wouldn't be asking.

I could guess about some of the settings, but I could also guess if my car has enough oil in it. Some things are just not for guessing at.

And I appreciate the posts, but please, no 'Just leave everything on [Auto]'

Thanks
Colt

[Colt1911]

Well, I was feeling adventurous, and decided to go ahead and see if I could get the DDR2 working. After a couple of hours, things were not looking good. I had tried setting all the basic timings manually, tried them all on very loose settings, tried many, many combinations of [Auto] and manual settings. And after much ado, it seems that the voltage, yes the voltage was the problem. I got to playing with the voltage because, there is another thread on here I was posting in, where people were overclocking their RAM, and they were saying that this ballistix was listed by micron as capable of 2.2V. I set the voltage to high, and noticed the errors got worse, then I set the voltage to normal, and the errors were fewer, then to low, only a few errors. Then I reset everything else to [Auto] with the voltage on low, and voila, no errors!

While this may seem to make sense, consider this. I can go set the same settings manually, the exact same way they are being configured by SPD now, with the voltage on [Auto], and it will produce errors. For example, SPD set the timings at 4,3,3,12 @266 dual channel, but if I set those settings manually, and put the voltage on [Auto], I get errors. The only thing I can figure is that the EPP somehow is screwing things up. Since I get errors when voltage is on [Auto], [High], and [Normal], but not on [Low]. Weird thing is, that CPU-Z, and Everest Ultimate edition, always report the exact same voltage no matter what the setting in the BIOS, its always 1.8V.

I am kinda burned out on memory tmings, since I have been dealing with this in one way or another for a couple of months. Soon though, I will see if I can tighen up the timings if possible. I noticed that I only got two errors using CR1 which would boost my bandwidth by over 100MB/s, so I would STILL like to know what the advanced timings mean.

If anyone knows what theses advanced timings specifically are, please detail them here. It seems they were not the key to my problem as I had previously thought. However I would still very much like to know what they mean.

Thank you for all the posts. For now, I am calling it a day on this memory problem. But hopfully this thread will help someone else, as the last thing I thought was that I would need to lower the voltage!

Colt

[Poci]

Fascinating article, but it doesnt help me. Let me reiterate what I need.

I NEED TO KNOW WHAT THESE SETTINGS ARE:

DRAM Drv DQS [Auto] (these are address ranges)
DRAM Drv CS [Auto]
DRAM Drv [Auto]
DRAM Drv [Auto]

CLKBuf DDRA Group Delay [Auto] (These are timing delays from 1x50 to 14x50 in pico seconds)
CLKBuf DDRB Group Delay [Auto]
CLKBuf FB_OutA Delay [Auto]
CLKBuf FB_OutB Delay [Auto]

CLKBuf DDRA Drv [3x]
CLKBuf DDRB Drv [3x]
CLKBuf FB_OutA Drv [4x]
CLKBuf FB_OutA Drv [4x]

Obviously you can see there are NO listings above about CAS, RAS, TRFC ect.

Thanks for the posts, but directing me to BASIC timing tutorials is NOT what I'm after. I have read plenty on basic memory timing, and there is plenty of info around the net about the subject. I have not been able to find any appreciable information about these settings around, or I most certainly wouldn't be asking.

I could guess about some of the settings, but I could also guess if my car has enough oil in it. Some things are just not for guessing at.

And I appreciate the posts, but please, no 'Just leave everything on [Auto]'

Thanks
Colt

Hmm,if those arent covered in the link I posted then.....

If you dont want to leave them at auto then just tweak each one individually.Simple as that.