Big 3 Auto bailout

[AMDScooter]

Ford kicking the sh*t outta gubberment motors...

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ugh-280938636/

The Ford Motor Company is proving that stories about the death of capitalism have been greatly exaggerated.
This week, Ford announced third-quarter net income rose 68 percent, and its domestic market share rose 2 percent over the previous September. In the worst economy since the Depression, the Michigan-based carmaker has earned a profit for six straight quarters. Ford passed Toyota to become the second largest auto brand sold in America. Meanwhile, General Motors' market share declined 2.8 percent over the same period, and Ford is poised to surpass GM to become the best-selling domestic car brand. Most importantly, Ford has achieved this turnaround without the "benevolent" guiding hand of the Obama administration.
In February 2009, Ford was the only one of the Big Three American auto giants to turn down federal bailout money. At the time, we noted that this would establish an ideal test case, pitting GM and Chrysler - the wards of the state - against family-run Ford representing private enterprise. Twenty-one months later, Ford is pumping out exciting new models, matching the Japanese in quality, expanding its market, decreasing its debt and creating jobs.
Historic rival General Motors, on the other hand, took a $50 billion bailout from Uncle Sam, after which Mr. Obama fired CEO Rick Wagoner, hand-picked new members for the GM board of directors and personally "laid out a framework for General Motors to achieve viability." Government Motors, however, has gone through four CEOs in 18 months, continues to lose market share, is crafting its new brand identity around a half-baked electric car, is lagging behind the competition in quality surveys and has failed to achieve sustained profitability.

Those who bought Ford stock in February 2009 are happy they did. The stock closed that day at $1.58, and as of this writing it's at $14.41. General Motors stock went down 74 percent between February and the end of May 2009, when trading was suspended and GM declared the biggest industrial insolvency in U.S. history. GM stock reemerged under the humiliating name "Motors Liquidation Co." and peaked at 93 cents in August 2009. It now trades for 27 cents.

The new GM is planning to hold an initial public offering (IPO) next month, which technical analysts initially expected to be priced around $110 per share but which has been downgraded to around 20 bucks. The government would like a higher price per share since it's a 61 percent stakeholder in the company and because a high stock price would seem to validate the wisdom of Mr. Obama's takeover. While the feds could compel an offering at an unrealistic initial stock price, the bureaucratic leviathan thankfully cannot (yet) force anyone to buy it.

When General Motors declared bankruptcy in the summer of 2009, Mr. Obama preached that the country had to make sacrifices "so that your children and all of our children can grow up in an America that still makes things." Ford Motor Company is proving to Mr. Obama that his amateur efforts really aren't needed for American industry to prosper. All that is required for business to flourish is to have well-run companies making quality products that people want to buy. All the government has to do in this scenario is get out of the way.

Imagine that..

[myv65]

Ford kicking the sh*t outta gubberment motors...

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ugh-280938636/



Imagine that..

^^ Didn't get it at $1.58 a share, but did score at $1.89 a share. Bought very, very shortly after Ford told the feds, "Thanks, but no thanks". Now in my 40s, and this must rank in top five decisions I've made. 'Course only buying 1500 shares instead of 15,000 probably ranks in bottom five. LOL.

[Dutchcedar]

^^^ I've always thought of you as one of the sharper tools in the shed, myv65.

Now I'm just jealous.

[AMDScooter]

WH:

White House: U.S. will recoup GM funds

The White House said today it still believes the Treasury Department will recoup the money the Obama administration invested in General Motors Co.

White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs reiterated that the administration believes it will at least obtain $36.1 billion of the $49.5 billion GM bailout — the amount President Barack Obama agreed to invest in GM.

. . .

What the WH fails to mention:

GM Doesn't Have to Pay Taxes
LITTLE-NOTICED RULING COSTS GOVERNMENT $45.4 BILLION

NEWSER) – General Motors won’t be government-owned for much longer, but it’s getting a parting gift from Uncle Sam: a $45.4 billion tax exemption that could leave it tax-free for years. GM will be able to shield its future profits using past losses using so-called “tax-loss carry-forwards,” the Wall Street Journal reports. Companies that have recently changed ownership aren’t supposed to be able to take full advantage of those, but a little-noticed ruling last year exempted TARP companies from that restriction.

The government decided that giving companies the tax shield would make them more attractive to investors, raising the sale price of their assets enough to make up for the lost tax revenue, sources tell the Journal. Besides, that tax revenue wouldn’t exist if the companies failed.

Almost as reprehensible as paying us back with our own money.

[AMDScooter]

Shocker.. this guy at the NYSlimes hearts the volt.

Loaded With Baggage and Planning to Go Far

Aside from the completely bogus MPG claims...



The EPA’s Electric Vehicle Mileage Fraud

Each of these has to be sold with a $7,500 tax credit to even be in the same ballpark price range as the competition. And even with that this POS is over priced. What a great freaking car! Bogus mileage claims. Made by a company we were forced to own so bamma's union pals could keep their outrageous salaries & benefits. By a company that paid us back a fraction of what we lent them with our own monay.

[Phopojijo]

You know Bush did a lot of that right? Didn't forget?

Not saying I agree with what Obama did do... but you know, place blame where it belongs... especially since cost of crude oil was a BIG factor in causing the auto crisis.

Sure it's the businesses' fault for not properly adjusting business models with the times -- but you know, blame where it's due. The vast majority of the blame goes on the auto manufacturers... and some amount between Bush and Obama, the split of which is debatable depending on how indirect you want to go with it.

[AMDScooter]

You know Bush did a lot of that right? Didn't forget?

Not saying I agree with what Obama did do... but you know, place blame where it belongs... especially since cost of crude oil was a BIG factor in causing the auto crisis.

Sure it's the businesses' fault for not properly adjusting business models with the times -- but you know, blame where it's due. The vast majority of the blame goes on the auto manufacturers... and some amount between Bush and Obama, the split of which is debatable depending on how indirect you want to go with it.

Seeing as I made no mention of Bamma in that post you'll have to refresh my memory as to how bushy "did a lot of that". IIRC he floated the auto makers per Bamma's request. Beyond that "placing blame where it belongs" puts it squarely on this administration and the auto makers and the UAW.

[Phopojijo]

Seeing as I made no mention of Bamma in that post you'll have to refresh my memory as to how bushy "did a lot of that". IIRC he floated the auto makers per Bamma's request. Beyond that "placing blame where it belongs" puts it squarely on this administration and the auto makers and the UAW.

Shocker.. this guy at the NYSlimes hearts the volt.

Loaded With Baggage and Planning to Go Far

Aside from the completely bogus MPG claims...



The EPA’s Electric Vehicle Mileage Fraud

Each of these has to be sold with a $7,500 tax credit to even be in the same ballpark price range as the competition. And even with that this POS is over priced. What a great freaking car! Bogus mileage claims. Made by a company we were forced to own so ---->bamma's<---- union pals could keep their outrageous salaries & benefits. By a company that paid us back a fraction of what we lent them with our own monay.

You're so deranged against Obama you don't even realize it. (Edit: Put arrows around it to make it more obvious)

-----------------

And your memory sucks.

[AMDScooter]

===>You're so deranged against Obama you don't even realize it. (Edit: Put arrows around it to make it more obvious)

-----------------

And your memory sucks.<===

Ok.. my memory sucks. But not nearly as badly as your avoiding explaining how bushy "did a lot of that". Put arrows around the part where you avoided responding to make it more obvious.

[Phopojijo]

I thought the common theory here was that you didn't need to justify yourself if you just acted like the biggest ass and smugly believed you're right regardless of what anyone else says, rationalizes, or proves.

Oh well, since we're apparently now on a "justify yourself" basis -- I will justify my comment... and I expect your pals and yourself to do the same from now on... I'm sure plenty of people here will have no problems calling you on it.

As I said, depends on how indirect you want to go.

Anywhere from:

-The initial bailout (~18 billion for the auto companies alone... about 1/3rd of the whole bailout IIRC) was set aside by Bush.

to:

-Bush's administration caused a pointless war which completely raped oil prices... DECIMATING domestic car sales (especially the much higher margin SUV-class) causing them to beg for customers... even going so far as employee pricing just to keep stock moving.

Yes they should have been smart enough to stop pushing SUVs and make higher margins on energy-saving and technically-advanced vehicles long ago -- Ford really impressed me with how they're handling themselves (Ford Sync and such), albeit they already had done a crap load of restructuring before 2008 which set them up better than GM when the cameras were on them... but even excluding that: Ford definitely understood how to fix themselves.

-----------------------

But yeah, that's what I meant.

See? If I say something, I actually thought through it to some reasonable amount. If you were hoping to "catch me" -- cry moar. If you're going to reply just attacking me and skirting around the argument like usual around here... cry a LOT moar. (Spelling intentional due to Team Fortress 2 meme).

[AMDScooter]

I thought the common theory here was that you didn't need to justify yourself if you just acted like the biggest ass and smugly believed you're right regardless of what anyone else says, rationalizes, or proves.

If that's a self examination of your posts then I agree.

Oh well, since we're apparently now on a "justify yourself" basis -- I will justify my comment... and I expect your pals and yourself to do the same from now on... I'm sure plenty of people here will have no problems calling you on it.

We are? Or are you just attempting to spin your absence of responding to a direct question onto a topic more to your liking? I never asked you to "justify" jack. I asked you to support your premise as to how bushy "did a lot of that". So far you've done sqwat to support the premise. If it's too much to ask simply say so.

As I said, depends on how indirect you want to go.

Anywhere from:

-The initial bailout (~18 billion for the auto companies alone... about 1/3rd of the whole bailout IIRC) was set aside by Bush.

Yes.. at Obama's request. Then Obama expanded it. Hardly meets the criteria to merit a bushy "did a lot of that" description. But lets continue to your more indirect suggestions.

-Bush's administration caused a pointless war which completely raped oil prices... DECIMATING domestic car sales (especially the much higher margin SUV-class) causing them to beg for customers... even going so far as employee pricing just to keep stock moving.

Interesting theory. Bush "caused" the Iraq war. And you call me "deranged"?

That aside... I'd agree that oil prices definitely had a lot to do with the recession that had a huge impact on domestic car sales. However, I could easily argue that the (D)emorats anti domestic energy policy (you know.. how they are against actually using resources readily available right here in the good ole' USA) has had a far greater impact than the Iraq war ever will. But then again you cannot blame that on ole' Bushy so I'm hardly surprised it did not make your "indirect" mentionable list.

Yes they should have been smart enough to stop pushing SUVs and make higher margins on energy-saving and technically-advanced vehicles long ago -- Ford really impressed me with how they're handling themselves, albeit they already had done a crap load of restructuring before 2008 which set them up better than GM when the cameras were on them... but even excluding that: Ford definitely understood how to fix themselves.

Well first as I said above, if we had a decent domestic energy program they would not have had to. Second.. had they not been hamstrung by the unions they could have been churning out better product. The reason they stuck to SUV's was it was the only segment of their product line they could pad the price enough on and actually turn a profit... because union labor cost them so much. Had you bothered to read the thread or expand your train of thought past "I blame Bush" you might have picked up on that already. I'm still not seeing anything that reinforces your bushy "did a lot of that" comment.

But yeah, that's what I meant.

See? If I say something, I actually thought through it to some reasonable amount. If you were hoping to "catch me" -- cry moar. If you're going to reply just attacking me and skirting around the argument like usual around here... cry a LOT moar. (Spelling intentional due to Team Fortress 2 meme).

Phlueese... the forum already has a habitual victim/elitist. We really don't need another. For the same guy who slapped down the "gotcha" because I used Bamma's name and then retorted "your memory sucks" to make the above statement is f*cking comic relief. Had you read the thread you'd see I've covered quite a lot of ground. So stating "I actually thought through it to some reasonable amount" as a follow up to your stretch that "the Iraq war killed the US car industry" theory is rather absurd. Stick to playing Team Fortress 2.

[Phopojijo]

Well I looked a little more into the issue and Bush asked Obama if Obama would want Bush to request the second half of the bailout from Congress on Obama's behalf to which Obama accepted... asking Bush to request the bailout cash.

Guess I was somewhat wrong on this one and Obama deserves a little extra blame compared to what I thought earlier. Oh well, it happens every once in a while.

------------

As for Bush not causing the Iraq war... serious? Bush's administration pressured congress to go to war hastily based on false intelligence. They also had a slew of bullcrap reasons to go ranging from attempted assassination plots on George H.W. Bush through spreading democracy through weapons of mass destruction that completely did not exist and there's many accounts of Bush's administration lying about it -- the most famous being from Cheney of course.

Bush pushed for Iraq, he caused it. Simple. Yes, that caused problems which led to the auto bailout.

--------------

As for your comments about my character. HA!

Seriously, for someone who asks for how Bush related to the auto bailout... it seems pretty gosh-dang hilarious how you then say "But then again you cannot blame that on ole' Bushy so I'm hardly surprised it did not make your "indirect" mentionable list.".

No shit Sherlock. The world is complicated, A+ detective work. You didn't ask for all the factors... you asked for Bush's factors. I told you them -- pretending like I left out shit you didn't ask for because I'm a zealot is dumb -- you didn't ask. Consider yourself called out on it. Bush (and his administration), however, was a MAJOR player in how f'cked up the economy is... but obviously not the only factor. Duh.

Seriously -- do you honestly think that I'm stupid enough to not notice little shit like that designed to try to make me look like a moron? I mostly ignore them because you're not worth the time (you, plural, usually look like idiots in some other more important ways)... but this time... you deserve a nice 'ole call-out on one of them. It's not that I don't notice those little things -- it's that they're obvious and it makes you look like an idiot to people who actually read a couple posts back.

[tucker]

If that's a self examination of your posts then I agree.



We are? Or are you just attempting to spin your absence of responding to a direct question onto a topic more to your liking? I never asked you to "justify" jack. I asked you to support your premise as to how bushy "did a lot of that". So far you've done sqwat to support the premise. If it's too much to ask simply say so.



Yes.. at Obama's request. Then Obama expanded it. Hardly meets the criteria to merit a bushy "did a lot of that" description. But lets continue to your more indirect suggestions.



Interesting theory. Bush "caused" the Iraq war. And you call me "deranged"?

That aside... I'd agree that oil prices definitely had a lot to do with the recession that had a huge impact on domestic car sales. However, I could easily argue that the (D)emorats anti domestic energy policy (you know.. how they are against actually using resources readily available right here in the good ole' USA) has had a far greater impact than the Iraq war ever will. But then again you cannot blame that on ole' Bushy so I'm hardly surprised it did not make your "indirect" mentionable list.



Well first as I said above, if we had a decent domestic energy program they would not have had to. Second.. had they not been hamstrung by the unions they could have been churning out better product. The reason they stuck to SUV's was it was the only segment of their product line they could pad the price enough on and actually turn a profit... because union labor cost them so much. Had you bothered to read the thread or expand your train of thought past "I blame Bush" you might have picked up on that already. I'm still not seeing anything that reinforces your bushy "did a lot of that" comment.




Phlueese... the forum already has a habitual victim/elitist. We really don't need another. For the same guy who slapped down the "gotcha" because I used Bamma's name and then retorted "your memory sucks" to make the above statement is f*cking comic relief. Had you read the thread you'd see I've covered quite a lot of ground. So stating "I actually thought through it to some reasonable amount" as a follow up to your stretch that "the Iraq war killed the US car industry" theory is rather absurd. Stick to playing Team Fortress 2.

You’ve been officially called-out Scooter welcome to the club. You’re among the charter members…

1. Tucker
2. Scooter
3. ???

[Phopojijo]

You forgot #4...

Profit.

[AMDScooter]

Well I looked a little more into the issue and Bush asked Obama if Obama would want Bush to request the second half of the bailout from Congress on Obama's behalf to which Obama accepted... asking Bush to request the bailout cash.

Guess I was somewhat wrong on this one and Obama deserves a little extra blame compared to what I thought earlier. Oh well, it happens every once in a while.

What? This the same guy who made this comment?:

See? If I say something, I actually thought through it to some reasonable amount.

Did a bang~up job thankin' this one through. And no.. you were no "somewhat wrong". You were completely wrong. Try this on for size for a lil more accuracy than the revisionist history you are currently pimping:

Obama Asks Bush to Back Rescue of Automakers
Democrats Draft Bailout Expansion

President-elect Barack Obama yesterday urged President Bush to support immediate aid for struggling automakers and back a new stimulus package, even as congressional Democrats began drafting legislation to give the Detroit automakers quick access to $25 billion by adding them to the Treasury Department's $700 billion economic rescue program.

. . .

It was your messiah that was doing the asking.. not the other way around. As an aside... I'm still not seeing anything to support your bushy "did a lot of that" premise. Gonna git to that any time soon? Before next year perhaps?

As for Bush not causing the Iraq war... serious? Bush's administration pressured congress to go to war hastily based on false intelligence. They also had a slew of bullcrap reasons to go ranging from attempted assassination plots on George H.W. Bush through spreading democracy through weapons of mass destruction that completely did not exist and there's many accounts of Bush's administration lying about it -- the most famous being from Cheney of course.

Bush pushed for Iraq, he caused it. Simple. Yes, that caused problems which led to the auto bailout.

Yes.. it is simple. You are deranged if you think bushy "caused" the Iraq war.

As for your comments about my character. HA!

What character? Or do you mean lack of?

Seriously, for someone who asks for how Bush related to the auto bailout... it seems pretty gosh-dang hilarious how you then say "But then again you cannot blame that on ole' Bushy so I'm hardly surprised it did not make your "indirect" mentionable list.".

I asked how bush was related to the auto bailout? Guess your memory sucks also. What I asked was for you to support your premise that bushy "did a lot of that". So far you've yet to even come close. Seriously.

No shit Sherlock. The world is complicated, A+ detective work. You didn't ask for all the factors... you asked for Bush's factors. I told you them -- pretending like I left out shit you didn't ask for because I'm a zealot is dumb -- you didn't ask. Consider yourself called out on it. Bush (and his administration), however, was a MAJOR player in how f'cked up the economy is... but obviously not the only factor. Duh.

Yes.. I asked you to support your premise that bushy "did a lot of that". You then dove head first into a BDS inspired bushy caused the Iraq war and it killed the US auto companies tailspin. The world is indeed complicated. Ferreting out your bullsh*t aint. Feel free to "call me out" and get your hat handed to you any time. Gotta love you moonbats... get yer butts kicked and declare victory.

Seriously -- do you honestly think that I'm stupid enough to not notice little shit like that designed to try to make me look like a moron? I mostly ignore them because you're not worth the time (you, plural, usually look like idiots in some other more important ways)... but this time... you deserve a nice 'ole call-out on one of them. It's not that I don't notice those little things -- it's that they're obvious and it makes you look like an idiot to people who actually read a couple posts back.

Seriously... it does not matter what I think. I seriously mean it when I say your posts would prove you are a moron without a bit of input from me at all. I seriously wish you would consider ignoring.. or at least desist from responding in such a fashion. Unless you feel there is space in your pie hole for both your boots. In which case.. seriously.. have at it. Seriously.. people that read a couple of posts back and actually do the homework and careful thinking you claim to do would have located the information I just cluebatted you with on the first page of the thread.

http://forums.pcper.com/showpost.php...1&postcount=74

Seriously.. think twice.. perhaps thrice.. before calling folks out. It's seriously making you look like a serious arse.