Big 3 Auto bailout

[Phopojijo]

I *was* being sarcastic. You were still making assumptions on Chevy Volt's popularity without hard numbers. Your source disagreed and claimed it was lack of supply. I don't need hard numbers to argue that the only evidence you have is to your contrary.

But keep trying to lick your wounds... watch the teeth though -- you seem to be cutting yourself more.

[crosshairs]

Oh.. and apparently the UAW no feels union membership is a a "fundamental human right" or sumtin.

UAW reveals ideas to try to level playing field

you missed a few words....they said

the ability to join a union is a “fundamental human right

but then it doesnt quite work with your agenda does it?

Why so much union hate? did a union member •••• your mom?

I mean really..Ive never seen someone post so much anti -union ••••••••....whats with you?

[AMDScooter]

I *was* being sarcastic. You were still making assumptions on Chevy Volt's popularity without hard numbers. Your source disagreed and claimed it was lack of supply. I don't need hard numbers to argue that the only evidence you have is to your contrary.

But keep trying to lick your wounds... watch the teeth though -- you seem to be cutting yourself more.

Wow.. you sure seem bitter and angry for someone who has declared victory.

[AMDScooter]

you missed a few words....they said

but then it doesnt quite work with your agenda does it?

What a huge differnce that makes. I stand corrected. Union membership vs. the ability to join a union as fundamental right. Either way it's some stupid arse sh*t. Lets see how it rates:

Life
Liberty
Pursuit of happiness
&
the ability to join a union?

Ya.. that fits.

How about the fundamental right to not join a union. If you go to work for GM, Ford or Chrysler you have no choice. Even if you opt out.. you still pay union dues. Some choice eh?

Why so much union hate? did a union member •••• your mom?

Yo momma jokes?? Really? Went directly for the basement in your first post.. grats.

I mean really..Ive never seen someone post so much anti -union ••••••••....whats with you?

Never seen so much anti-union stuff? Ever leave the union hall? People are fed up to their ears with the wreckage unions are laying on our land. I say my collection of opinions in this thread and others would sum up my opposition to unions nicely. Maybe you should try reading them if ya give a hoot. There's plenty of reasons to hate unions... hows about them bankrupting the states and driving business out of the US or simply out of business for starters?

[crosshairs]

Never seen so much anti-union stuff? Ever leave the union hall? People are fed up to their ears with the wreckage unions are laying on our land. I say my collection of opinions in this thread and others would sum up my opposition to unions nicely. Maybe you should try reading them if ya give a hoot. There's plenty of reasons to hate unions... hows about them bankrupting the states and driving business out of the US or simply out of business for starters?

Last time I checked, the banking industry and the financial/mortgage industry were not union....I don't know if you have heard, but they aren't exactly helping our economy either...Walmart is not union, and they import almost exclusively from China these days.....that does not help our economy either...so try as you might, blaming the union for all the trouble with the economy shows you for the union hating fear mongered that you are.

You may be able to pull that crap on some teenager, but your not fooling me one bit with your anti union agenda...all I want to now is why?

[AMDScooter]

Last time I checked, the banking industry and the financial/mortgage industry were not union.... I don't know if you have heard, but they aren't exactly helping our economy either...

No.. they got wrecked when the gubberment got involved in regulating the housing industry to make it "fair". Affirmative action quotas for lending standards led to entirely predictable results. Same groups involved though.. ACORN types holding hands with the SEIU and such.

Walmart is not union, and they import almost exclusively from China these days.....that does not help our economy either...so try as you might, blaming the union for all the trouble with the economy shows you for the union hating fear mongered that you are.

Ya... and Wallymart is doing bang up business. Good on them for keeping the union douchebags out. Much of that product they buy from china probably used to be made here. Cost of manufacturing here in the us has become intolerable to manufacturers. Labor costs due to unions are a large part of that. Big round of applause for unions chasing jobs outta the us!!

You may be able to pull that crap on some teenager, but your not fooling me one bit with your anti union agenda...all I want to now is why?

I ain't trying to hide my anti-union stance Einstein. What's the biggest drag on the majority of states that are in deep financial troubles economies?? Unfunded union pension/benefits. Being able to retire in some cases at the age of 50 with 75% of your salary plus COLA for the rest of your life with full benefits is simply not a sustainable business model. Which is why the only place the unions are flourishing any more is the public sector. Why am I against them? For exactly those reasons.

Check out GM's balance sheet.

GM Continues To Stuff Dealers With Its Cars

. . .

I attached the Citi Initiation on GM, which is quite funny as the adjustments for cash, pension and tax benefits account for more than 1/2 the value of the stock........not to mention valuing the auto ops at a hugely inflated 4.5x 2013 EBITDAP..............and the dirty secret that GM is currently reporting PENSION INCOME while paying out $6-$9 bn per year in CASH PENSION EXPENSES.........oh, and with a $100 bn pension, that is equivalent to nearly 1/10th of the entire S&P 500 Pension liabilities despite having a market cap of $50-$60bn.

. . .

Takeaway quote but read the whole article if you get a chance. The only way companies and states are going to be able to break this union stranglehold is bankruptcy. Then renegotiate the union contracts at a realistic level. We shoulda made GM and Chrysler do that from go. Too late now.. we (the US taxpayer) own these sh*t companies now and probably will for the foreseeable future. The states and many cities are looking at bankrupcy due to union overhead as real possibilities. WTF reaction do you expect from joe taxpayer??

[crosshairs]

Ya... and Wallymart is doing bang up business. Good on them for keeping the union douchebags out. Much of that product they buy from china probably used to be made here. Cost of manufacturing here in the us has become intolerable to manufacturers. Labor costs due to unions are a large part of that. Big round of applause for unions chasing jobs outta the us!!

yeah Walmart is doing great...running US based company's out of business for going on 30 years now....

Wal-Mart wields its power for just one purpose: to bring the lowest possible prices to its customers. At Wal-Mart, that goal is never reached. The retailer has a clear policy for suppliers: On basic products that don't change, the price Wal-Mart will pay, and will charge shoppers, must drop year after year. But what almost no one outside the world of Wal-Mart and its 21,000 suppliers knows is the high cost of those low prices. Wal-Mart has the power to squeeze profit-killing concessions from vendors. To survive in the face of its pricing demands, makers of everything from bras to bicycles to blue jeans have had to lay off employees and close U.S. plants in favor of outsourcing products from overseas.

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html

now let me ask you a question....if the company you worked for went union tomorrow and you got a 10k a year raise,plus free medical and a pension, would you quit?

don't bother to answer, because I already know .....

How about the fundamental right to not join a union. If you go to work for GM, Ford or Chrysler you have no choice. Even if you opt out.. you still pay union dues. Some choice eh?

the only union jobs at these companies are the labor jobs...there are plenty of non union jobs to be had.

and while we are on the subject of non union jobs, lets not forget that in 2007 when GM closed 32 plants due to financial problem, Rick Wagoner managed to take home $14.4m

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/200...s-144m-for-07/

and now, the new CEO, while trying to squeeze the union for concessions, think he should get more money

GM’s Lutz believes executive salaries are too low



In a recent interview, GM’s chairman, Bob Lutz, commented on the executive pay situation at GM and how he believes the executives are being significantly underpaid by market standards

http://www.leftlanenews.com/gms-lutz...e-too-low.html



so clearly, in your mind, all of the financial troubles are caused by those greedy union folks....after all, how dare they try and get mote pay..., they should all take a pay cut so the execs don't have to...its only fair after all...

The only way companies and states are going to be able to break this union stranglehold is bankruptcy. Then renegotiate the union contracts at a realistic level. We shoulda made GM and Chrysler do that from go. Too late now.. we (the US taxpayer) own these sh*t companies now and probably will for the foreseeable future. The states and many cities are looking at bankrupcy due to union overhead as real possibilities. WTF reaction do you expect from joe taxpayer??

I don't disagree with this, but how are you going to convince the workers to work for less, when the execs wont......I know the execs are worth more, but the compensation is far more than it should be for a company that's bleeding cash...I find it hard to believe they could not fill that position for 2 mill a year...14.4 is ludicrous ..but hey, that's the deal he made and they need to live up to it...just like they need to live up to the deal hey made with the union.

[AMDScooter]

yeah Walmart is doing great...running US based company's out of business for going on 30 years now....

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html

FYI.. Wallymart is a "US based company". US companies have been running other US companies outta business for ages.. that's how it works. Build better mousetrap or go fish. Keeping unions out is a proven benefit for their business.

now let me ask you a question....if the company you worked for went union tomorrow and you got a 10k a year raise,plus free medical and a pension, would you quit?

don't bother to answer, because I already know .....

That type of unrealistic UNION entitlement crap is what drives companies outta the US or outta business. Great.. so I'd get 10k a year raise, plus free medical and a pension today and am looking for a job next year cuz my company went under or moved operations to mexico. Break out the bubbly..

the only union jobs at these companies are the labor jobs...there are plenty of non union jobs to be had.

None of that changes the facts I laid out. If I want one of those UNION labor positions there is no way to avoid lining those union douchebags pockets. That seem fair to you? Looks to me more like something that should be looked into like racketeering.

and while we are on the subject of non union jobs, lets not forget that in 2007 when GM closed 32 plants due to financial problem, Rick Wagoner managed to take home $14.4m

Oh brother. As I pointed out above the union pension obligation runs into the BILLON$. You sure know how to miss the forest cuz of all them dang trees.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/200...s-144m-for-07/

and now, the new CEO, while trying to squeeze the union for concessions, think he should get more money


http://www.leftlanenews.com/gms-lutz...e-too-low.html



so clearly, in your mind, all of the financial troubles are caused by those greedy union folks....after all, how dare they try and get mote pay..., they should all take a pay cut so the execs don't have to...its only fair after all...

Not at all. Management is just as at fault for letting the unions define those unsustainable terms to begin with. If they were worth 1/4 of what they are getting paid they woulda told the unions to go pound sand and hired some new screw turners who would willingly do the work for a decent wage.

Seriously.. you think someone who puts a tire on a car and holds a machine in place that automatically torques 5 lugnuts 8 hours a day should be earning $75k a year plus the pension and benefits they currently have? IMHO the union guy has nothing on the guy working the taco bell drive thru for $10/hr.

FYI, when I was 19 I was in the teamsters union. I thought they were useless scumbags then. My views have only been confirmed in the last 25 years. Add to the fact my stepfather retired from GM. I know how that union infested sh*thole operates and have been subjected firsthand to the ruin and havoc that unions wreak on business. Ever had to live with the union instigated result of a plant shutdown? I have. So try not to git to effin preachy with me mmmkay?

I don't disagree with this, but how are you going to convince the workers to work for less, when the execs wont......I know the execs are worth more, but the compensation is far more than it should be for a company that's bleeding cash...I find it hard to believe they could not fill that position for 2 mill a year...14.4 is ludicrous ..but hey, that's the deal he made and they need to live up to it...just like they need to live up to the deal hey made with the union.

Everyone's salary is what they negotiate from the top down. IMHO they are all overpaid. That level of salary + benefits is simply not sustainable. Most companies run that bad simply go outta business. But not the auto makers. Now we own it. Had the gubberment not stepped in on our behalf your question would have answered itself. How to make people work for less...?? When their companies fold from entitlement obligations it becomes academic. As is I'll never buy another new GM or Chrysler product. F-them. They are getting my monies unwillingly thru my taxes anyway. Ford is hanging on but I feel eventually the unions will make them a ward of the state also.

It's a lot more complicated in the public sector. Cities and states declaring bankruptcy... geebus what mess the unions have made of that sector. And again joe taxpayer is going to be on the hook for the bill.

[AMDScooter]

Unions looking to infest the competition...

Auto union wants to organize non-Big 3 plants

WASHINGTON – The future of the United Auto Workers union is directly tied to its ability to sign up workers at U.S. plants owned by foreign-based car companies, the union's leader said Monday.
In a speech to union members, UAW President Bob King laid out in stark terms the importance of the union's work to organize a plant owned by a Japanese, South Korean or German competitor to the Detroit Three. King said the UAW would decide in three months which company it would target but said the organizing plans were critical to the union's outlook.

"If we don't organize these transnationals, I don't think there's a long-term future for the UAW, I really don't," King said in a speech at the union's legislative conference.

During the past three decades, the UAW has had little success in organizing workers at U.S. factories owned by foreign car makers, which have built plants mostly in southern states which are generally not as union-friendly as the industrial Midwest.

Many of the foreign car companies pay wages comparable to UAW-represented factories owned by Detroit automakers, but the foreign companies have avoided UAW rules that owners say can make plants less efficient.

King said after years of declining membership, the union needed to represent a larger share of workers in the auto industry to strengthen its position at the bargaining table. He said the UAW had picketed about 50 of the largest foreign auto dealerships in the U.S. and planned to increase the number to 300 or 400 dealerships around the country.

King said the union would need to mobilize all of its 1 million active and retired members in the organizing push.

In 2009, when General Motors and Chrysler sought bankruptcy and Ford faced severe financial problems, the union agreed to let the companies pay newly hired workers about $15 per hour, about half the hourly wage of a longtime UAW worker. It also agreed to scrap the "jobs bank," in which laid-off workers got most of their pay indefinitely for doing nothing.

There is no place for you douchbags now... if not for gubberment intervention on your behalf you'd be gone.

[myv65]

He said the UAW had picketed about 50 of the largest foreign auto dealerships in the U.S. and planned to increase the number to 300 or 400 dealerships around the country.

Fair disclosure: My vehicle history is Chevy, Mitsubishi, Pontiac, Ford, Dodge, Honda, and Ford, so fairly tilted in favor of domestics.

The above is enough for me to pay a visit to any such local dealer and shake hands with any @sshat picketing, thanking them for killing the American auto industry and easing my decision to buy foreign next time around. It's almost enough for me to specifically organize others to do similarly.

[AMDScooter]

Dealerships stuffed even more-so than last year..

GM Parks 510,000 Cars With Dealers, 31% Higher Than Year Earlier

One more month, one more chance for GM to stuff its dealers with cars. Sure enough, in the just release January sales PR, the company announced that "General Motors dealers in the United States reported 178,896 total sales in January, a 23-percent increase from a year ago for the company’s four brands. The gain was driven by solid retail sales which were 36 percent higher than a strong January a year ago." And behind the scenes, GM has continued to shove a whopping 510,000 cars with dealers: In January 2011, the firm had 510k cars at its dealers, compared to just 390,000 in January 2010, a 30% increase. Furthermore, as the only component of consumer credit that is surging, non-revolving loans, indicates that virtually all car purchases are made based on the old formula of "no money down." And with the government backstopping both the car maker and the lender banks, we would be very interested in discovering just how bad the delinquency rate in non-revolving car debt is over the past year, especially as it relates to GM.

[AMDScooter]

I'm sure the usual suspects will be up in arms over these bonuses...

GM Workers to Get Cut of Profits

General Motors Co. is planning to pay its hourly workers in the U.S. at least $3,000 each in profit-sharing payouts, the largest amount ever, after the company's return to profitability in 2010, people familiar with the matter said.

GM in the ...

Loan the unions billions so they can stay afloat and then pay us back a portion of what they borrowed... with our money! Now that they are "profitable".. they get more bonuses. Excuse me for a few minutes.. I'll be over here =====>

[Dutchcedar]

^^^ Rape and pillage.

[AeroSim]

Sad part for me is- Unions were a good idea ... that went sour. Profit sharing- same thing.

Then you have George Government coming in and preaching mandate.

It never fails- a system is only as good as the people in it. Funny how corruption breeds.

You know, if honest working people abandoned it all ....

Who is John Galt?

[Phopojijo]

I'm sure the usual suspects will be up in arms over these bonuses...

GM Workers to Get Cut of Profits



Loan the unions billions so they can stay afloat and then pay us back a portion of what they borrowed... with our money! Now that they are "profitable".. they get more bonuses. Excuse me for a few minutes.. I'll be over here =====>

It was the hourly workers who got the bonuses. It's pretty clear that was an image move. Don't say I agree with it of course (I don't, because they're not really profits) -- but I think of anyone deserves a bonus (inside the company) it's the hourly workers.