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  1. #31
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    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay

    A lefty blogger eyes the Gitmo flip-floppery

    From his perch at the Atlantic, moderately lefty blogger Marc Ambinder trains the scalpel of his mind on Barack Obama's various positions on Gitmo and exposes two items which explain much of the difference in thinking between left and right on this subject. First, on the matter of the evidence that might be required to try the detainees (bold emphasis added):

    Already, the facts on the ground have forced Obama to change his assumptions about how the detainees will be tried. It had been the hope of administration legal advisers that a majority of the 240 - perhaps a large majority - would be tried in federal courts. Then they discovered that the evidentiary thresholds for doing so were too high given the quality of information the Bush government had collected about the detainees, and they subsequently concluded that Article III trials wouldn't be as swift as an option that they wanted to reserve for only a couple dozen high-value detainees: the military commissions.
    The bolded language is about as mushy as it gets. First, the "quality of information" about the detainees is irrelevant, at least in this discussion. Rather, the question is the quality of evidence, an entirely different thing, as anybody who has ever watched an episode of CSI -- original or "Miami" will do -- knows. There is lots of "information" in the world, but very little admissible evidence, a distinction essential to many politicians and to all courts. The difference is also at the heart of the argument over whether jihadis detained on the battlefield by soldiers ought to be treated as illegal combatants or as criminals. One needs evidence (as opposed to mere information) to detain the latter, but not the former. I would have thought that at least that much was clear by now, even to a lefty blogger.

    Second, the "Bush government" was not on the battlefield when these people were rounded up, American soldiers were. Soldiers are not trained, ordered, or even gently encouraged to gather evidence, and if they should happen to come into possession of some their own institution lacks the procedures to maintain a chain of custody suitable to admit that evidence in a United States criminal trial. Yes, we all understand that the left has figured out that bashing "the Bush government" is a lot more popular among the boobery than attacking soldiers and intelligence operatives, but you look like an idiot if you push that thinking to its limit. It is not unlike complaining that "the Bush government" misdelivered that important letter informing me that I had won the lottery.

    Third, does Mr. Ambinder really think that the Obama people suddenly "discovered" that there was insufficient evidence to try these guys? Seriously? Because defenders of the Gitmo policy were making that point for years. Ambinder's report of Obama's new discovery means that the assumption on the left, and apparently inside the Obama team, could only have been that the White House and Pentagon were lying about the "quality of information" all along. You have to wonder what other supposed Bush administration "lies" will suddenly be "discovered" to be, well, truths.

    Then there is this laugh-if-don't-cry jaw-dropper:

    The plain truth is that the administration fully expects to hold a number of detainees in indefinite custody within the United States. (Ironically, had Guantanamo not become a lightning rod for the world, it might have been the perfect place to build long-term detention facilities.)
    Er, Mark, how did Guantanamo "become a lightening rod for the world"? Am I the only one who believes that if the American left, including its foot soldiers in the media, had stood shoulder to shoulder with the "Bush government" in defense of Gitmo that it would have been different? If Jimmy Carter and Al Gore had flown around the world making the now apparently obvious case for Gitmo instead of attacking it in front of foreign audiences is there at least a chance that Gitmo would not have become a "lightening rod for the world"? The idea is laughable, you say? Of course, because the plain truth, obvious to anybody who lives in a college town, is that the American left simply and instinctively hates the disapproval of foreigners, whether putative victims on the "Arab street" or European intellectuals, and will turn on just about any American institution if it will restore their approbation.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  2. #32
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    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay

    VP Joe Biden Totally On Message as He Speculates on Fresh Horrors that Closing Gitmo Will Unleash on Country

    Well, he's on a message. Just because it happens to be •••• Cheney's message is no reason to judge Joe harshly. Baby steps:

    Speaking to reporters on the final day of his tour of the Balkans, Vice President Joe Biden acknowledged the administration still hasn’t figured out what to do with all the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay but predicted that it will still meet its deadline of closing the prison within a year. “I think so,” Biden said, when asked about the January 2010 deadline. “But, look, what the president said is that this is going to be hard. It’s like opening Pandora’s Box. We don’t know what’s inside the box.”
    He added that it's probably best, since we won't know the extent of the spread of the released jihadis or the damage they might do, to stay off planes, trains, and completely out of the area known as "America" for the forseeable future, just to be safe. All right, I made that up, but isn't it great that we've moved past the "fear-mongering" of the Bush administration?

    Presumably, Robert Gibbs will inform us of what the Vice President meant to say at his next briefing. The Weekly Standard humbly suggests that Joe Biden reach into Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan's bag of tricks for future predicaments (and we all know they're coming!). From a September 1984 AP report:

    Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan has agreed to campaign in his home state of New York for Walter F. Mondale, but Moynihan said Tuesday he doesn't think the Demcoratic presidential candidate has much chance to unseat President Reagan.

    "I don't think so, do you?" he asked reporters at his semi-weekly news conference.

    Moynihan immediately retrenched and said he meant to say that polls indicated Mondale trailed Reagan by a significant margin.

    "I left that (polls) out," he said in response to a follow-up question. "I stand by what I meant to say."
    Indeed.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  3. #33
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    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay

    Would of been cheaper to take those out we KNEW that had a serious
    beef with us with a simple .22 to the back of the gourd and sent
    em to those virgins who are waiting on their showing up..

    Enough PC. One thing thing I got to give those over in the middle
    east, when you're busted and it's proven, you're done for the
    way they see fit. You steel and caught, costs ya hand, etc.

    No more Mister Nice Guys.

    Am I cold on this ? Yea I guess so. If my family was hungry and
    needin' looking after, I'd risk the chance of serious MOJO.

    Went off topic. I don't have the answers, but I flat tired of the money
    spent on these SOB's and any other crap program that doesn't have
    this Nation's which is US as a PRIORITY.
    Last edited by no2guncntrl; 05-22-2009 at 09:42 PM.

  4. #34
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    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay

    Heh.. seriously. I think I heard •••• Morris or some other conservative commentator float this idea a few days ago, rename gitmo. Feel free to correct me on that original source.

    Intel Dem: Fix Gitmo — don't close it

    A key House Democrat on intelligence matters believes that Guantanamo Bay doesn't need to be closed, but rather, needs to be fixed.

    Rep. Alcee Hastings (D-Fla.), a senior member of the House Intelligence Committee, said he is planning legislation that would order the facility to be kept open, while assuring the world that torture and mistreatment of detainees has ended.

    “What's needed at Guantanamo Bay is transparency and accountability,” Hastings said. “You go back and change the bad things and turn the page.”

    Hastings said a colleague dubbed his plan “Guantanamo 2.0." Still in the draft stage, it would assure access to the prison by the United States's Western allies and watchdog groups like Amnesty International and the Red Cross. Add that to President Obama's decision to end "enhanced interrogation," and there isn't a need to close the detention facility, Hastings said.

    “All they want to know is that there isn't any torture and people can go there and see,” Hastings said.

    He said that under his proposal, "a small number" of detainees might still come to the United States to be tried.

    Congress and President Obama are at odds about the closure of Guantanamo. Obama has ordered the detention facility closed by January 2010 and gave a speech explaining how some detainees can be safely confined in U.S. prisons. But Congress has stricken funding amid constituent concerns about where in the United States the prisoners would be sent.
    That's right.. make some cosmetic changes and call it yours. Just like Obama has done with nearly every other policy he and the leftoids slammed the Bush administration for.

    A quick google for "rename gitmo" comes up with this thread. A few good ones in there..

    It's all about marketing..Rename GITMO thread..

    What if you gave it a name like "Shining Sands" or "Ocean Breeze" instead of ... Gitmo?
    How about....the 72 Virgin Islands?
    Call it "Gray Poupon and Silver Service Facility"
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  5. #35
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    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay

    The guy ran on this promise for over a year. To show up for the job... sign an executive order.. and have absolutelynof*ckingplanwhatsoever how the heck to do it is more telling than all his rhetoric combined.

    Where is your gitmo "exit strategy" smart guy?



    "Gitmo.. that's easy.. close down Guantanamo.."


    Oh Dear Lord: Key Democrat Offers Alternative to Gitmo: "Gitmo 2.0"

    Karl Rove keeps making that point that when Obama first weighed in on this, in 2007 I think, he said it was, quote unquote, "easy' to close Gitmo.

    And in yesterday's speech? "Difficult," etc.

    Our President, Mr. Wizard, Mensa Chapter President, was pretty stupid in claiming it was "easy" to resolve these issues, eh?

    Again: Thank God we don't have Sarah Palin bumbling around the White House. She stupidly said things like "these are difficult issues" during the campaign, proving how dumb she was. She was stupidly, prematurely aware of the difficulties involved.

    Obama brilliantly realized they were difficult at precisely the right genius moment, a year or two later.


    That's really the sign of brilliance, you know. We should give credit for scientific discoveries not to the guys who thought of them first, but who thought of them second, third... six bazillionth... years after the initial discovery.


    Thanks to AHFF Geoff.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  6. #36
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    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay

    In his usual manner of researching everything before laying out a plan, Obama tossed out the clever idea of putting these nutballs in SuperMax prisons.

    Present available spaces in United States SuperMax prisons... one.

    Maybe he will check with Arnold on the possibilities of letting established cell residents free due to over crowding.

  7. #37
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    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchcedar View Post
    In his usual manner of researching everything before laying out a plan, Obama tossed out the clever idea of putting these nutballs in SuperMax prisons.

    Present available spaces in United States SuperMax prisons... one.

    Maybe he will check with Arnold on the possibilities of letting established cell residents free due to over crowding.
    -OR-... perhaps the gubbenator can sell the Obama San Quentin for a nice round figure. Say about $22 Billion..

    A great read on Gitmo here:


    SPECIAL PREVIEW. The Gitmo Myth and the Torture Canard
    Arthur Herman


    . . .

    Then several strange things happened. Obama’s order “closing” Gitmo actually left it open for a year, ostensibly until new arrangements could be made for the 240 or so inmates still detained there—though Obama admitted privately it might have to stay open longer than that. Later, Attorney General Eric Holder announced that, far from being “the Bermuda Triangle of human rights” that Human Rights Watch’s Wendy Patten had dubbed it, Gitmo was in full compliance with the humane-treatment provisions of the Geneva Convention. Meanwhile, the military commissions, which Human Rights Watch and others groups had denounced as a travesty of justice, were only being suspended for 120 days, pending a review—and, indeed, following that review, will be reinstated almost exactly as they were before.

    If one adds to this mix:
    • the twelve separate inquiries into the abuses alleged by critics and former detainees at Gitmo that found no evidence of those abuses taking place;
    • the revelation during the release earlier this year of the so-called “torture memos” that waterboarding and other harsh interrogation techniques had been applied to exactly three suspects in the course of eight years and had never been standard operating practice at Gitmo;
    • the evaluation by the Combating Terrorism Center at West Point that 73 percent of Gitmo detainees were “a demonstrated threat” to Americans;
    • and, finally, the fact that the detention facility was created in the wake of a declaration by Congress in September 2001 that “all necessary and appropriate force” should be used “against those nations, organizations, or persons” [emphasis added] responsible for the attacks of September 11;
    —one may be permitted to wonder why, exactly, the pressure to close the prison facility has been so intense and long-lasting.

    . . .
    If anyone has a few minutes I'd suggest read the whole thang.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  8. #38
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    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay

    Great.. sign an EO with no plan to shut gitmo down. Only to discover the exact same reasons the previous administration kept it open. Pretty much as you have learned through OJT in regard to nearly every other policy you condemned the previous administration for that you are now continuing. Our "no executive experience"-n-chief is yielding entirely expected results in following through on many of his promises.


    Europe Objects Anew to Detainees
    Reluctance Centers On U.S. Refusal to Also Admit Inmates


    BERLIN, May 28 -- The Obama administration's push to resettle at least 50 Guantanamo Bay prisoners in Europe is meeting fresh resistance as European officials demand that the United States first give asylum to some inmates before they will do the same.

    . . .
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  9. #39
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    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay

    ^^^ Asylum?

    What the h3ll is that suppose to mean?

    It makes it sound like they are victims instead of the murdering extremist filth they really are.

  10. #40
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    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay



    I like his style.

  11. #41
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    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay

    Heh... no joke.. remember back when Obama was calling gitmo "a human rights blight". Not to worry.. it's all betta now..

    Obama argues against Uigher release

    Barack Obama has decided to fight the release of the 17 Chinese Uighers at Guantanamo Bay into the US, Jake Tapper reports — and he’s choosing an interesting argument to use. While Obama has wasted no opportunity to paint Gitmo as a stain on the nation’s reputation and all but the gulag •••• Durbin called it a few years ago, the administration paints quite a different picture of it in court:

    The Obama administration asked the U.S. Supreme Court Friday to reject a request for a hearing from 17 Chinese Muslims currently being held at Guantanamo Bay Naval Base, arguing they have no right to come to America despite a district judge’s orders last Fall that they immediately be brought to the U.S. and released.

    “Petitioners are free to return to their home country, but they understandably do not wish to do so, because they fear inhumane treatment there,” reads the filing, signed by US Solicitor General Elena Kagan, Assistant Attorney General Tony West, and other Justice Department officials. “Petitioners are also free to go to any other country that is willing to accept them.”

    Many European countries are waiting for the US to accept the Uighurs before they agree to accept any more detainees from Guantanamo, but there is strong resistance from Congress, which recently voted to keep any detainees out of the US — even out of US prisons.

    But not to worry — the Obama administration says the Uighurs’ detention isn’t so bad, considering.

    “In contrast to individuals currently detained as enemies under the laws of war, petitioners are being housed under relatively unrestrictive conditions, given the status of Guantanamo Bay as a United States military base,” Kagan writes, saying they are “in special communal housing with access to all areas of their camp, including an outdoor recreation space and picnic area.” They “sleep in an air-conditioned bunk house and have the use of an activity room equipped with various recreational items, including a television with VCR and DVD players, a stereo system, and sports equipment.”
    In fact, the conditions at the rest of the facility also are pretty decent, compared to conditions in max-security prisons elsewhere in the US. The military runs a tight ship at Gitmo, but the prisoners have a standard of living that — apart from their detention — exceeds anything available to them in their home countries, free or not. They certainly don’t want to be there any more than the Uighers, but as the administration admits in this filing, they’re being detained under the “laws of war.”

    Presumably, they would have to be detained under the “laws of war” regardless of where we house them. So why close Gitmo at all?

    Also, Obama’s new friends in Europe have to be a little nonplussed at this filing. He just got done twisting arms on his first trip to the EU to get our allies to take some of the Gitmo detainees. Supposedly, the Uighers are the best of the lot, with no particular animus towards anyone but China, at least according to the administration. If so, why did Obama go to court to block them from entering the US? Europeans may not have been so charmed by Obama as to miss that glaring hypocrisy.

    It seems that the more Obama looks at Gitmo and the military tribunal system, the better he likes both. Maybe by this summer, Obama will finally admit out loud that George W. Bush had it right all along.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  12. #42
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    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay

    Just rename the joint. The messiah can give it a blessing and it'll be all good. Hell, he's broken nearly every other promise w/o so much as a whimper from his most vocal supporters here in TLR whom voted for him.

    Germans Don't Want the Uighur Detainees

    The New York Times reports that right now, for some odd reason, the Germans don't want to accept Uighur detainees who were trained by the leader of the Eastern Turkistan Islamic Party:

    German interior officials said that the inmates from the Guantánamo Bay detention center whom the United States wants Germany to accept could pose a major security risk because they had spent time in terrorist training camps in Afghanistan.

    The United States has asked Germany to take 12 Chinese Uighurs, members of a Muslim minority located mostly in western China. The Uighurs have been persecuted by the Chinese authorities, according to human rights organizations, and American officials say they cannot be returned to China because they might be mistreated.

    But Uwe Schünemann, the conservative interior minister of the state of Lower Saxony, who along with the other 15 regional interior ministers must respond to the U.S. request, said that accepting the detainees was “not without danger.”

    “The information we have is that the Uighurs we are being asked to accept were in terrorist training camps in Afghanistan and then they were sent to Guantánamo Bay,” Mr. Schünemann said. “We need much more information from the U.S. about these detainees before we are prepared to make any decision.” ...

    “What we want to know, besides much more information about their past, is why the former inmates will not settle in the U.S. and why they cannot return home,” said Mr. Schünemann. Until then, he said, Germany will not be prepared to accept any former detainees.
    In other Gitmo news, The Hill reports that "The White House sent a deputy national security adviser to Capitol Hill Wednesday evening to urge Senate Democrats to drop their resistance to relocating Guantanamo Bay detainees to U.S. prisons."
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  13. #43
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    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay

    Polls ain't looking to hot for Obama's "close gitmo" plan. I feel a "change" ah' brewin'.

    Taking bets.. how long till Obama flops on this issue also?
    Follow up bet.. how many of his most ardent supporters will try to pimp it as a good thing when he does because "The One" is showing flexibility...

    New poll results are devastating for Obama's Gitmo plan

    By: Byron York
    Chief Political Correspondent
    06/02/09 2:44 PM EDT

    I've gotten a look inside the Gallup poll numbers showing that a majority of Americans oppose shutting down the U.S. detention facility in Guantanamo Bay. The numbers are stunning. They show a strong and virtually across-the-board rejection of President Obama's proposal to close the prison.

    Overall, 65 percent of those surveyed oppose shutting Gitmo, versus 32 percent who say it should be closed. According to the poll's internal numbers, large majorities of men oppose closing the prison, large majorities of women oppose it, large majorities of white people oppose it, large majorities of non-white people oppose it, people with graduate degrees oppose it, and people who didn't finish high school oppose it. Pretty much everybody.

    For Obama, the key numbers are the ones that break down opinion by political party. Ninety-one percent of Republicans oppose shutting Gitmo. Sixty-eight percent of independents oppose it, too. The only group that favors shutting down the prison is Democrats, and that is by a relatively narrow 53 percent to 42 percent margin.

    When virtually the entire opposition party, plus 68 percent of independents, plus 42 percent of your own party oppose something you want to do, then you're in trouble.

    Another part of the poll asked respondents, "What effect do you think the Guantanamo Bay prison has had on U.S. national security? Overall, 40 percent say the prison has strengthened national security, while 37 percent say it has not had much effect at all. Just 18 percent say the existence of Guantanamo has weakened national security.

    Among Republicans, five percent say Gitmo has weakened national security. Among independents, just 14 percent say the same, and among Democrats, just 33 percent say the prison has weakened national security. That means that the overwhelming majority of Americans reject the key argument the Obama White House has put forward for closing Guantanamo -- that it has weakened American national security.

    Finally, Gallup asked whether, if Guantanamo were closed, respondents would favor or oppose moving some of the inmates to prisons in their state. No surprises here -- overall, 74 percent oppose having Gitmo detainees come to their state, while just 23 percent favor it. Broken down by party, 94 percent of Republicans oppose it, 78 percent of independents oppose it, and 56 percent of Democrats oppose it.

    That is overwhelming opposition, and these results are devastating for the president's plan to shut down Guantanamo.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  14. #44
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    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter View Post
    Polls ain't looking to hot for Obama's "close gitmo" plan. I feel a "change" ah' brewin'.

    Taking bets.. how long till Obama flops on this issue also?
    Follow up bet.. how many of his most ardent supporters will try to pimp it as a good thing when he does because "The One" is showing flexibility...

    New poll results are devastating for Obama's Gitmo plan
    ^^^

    Soo predictable it's f*cking scary...

    Obama's Flip-Flops for the Public Good

    . . .

    Overall, however, Obama has been praised for his flexibility, not condemned for his flip-flops.

    . . .
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  15. #45
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    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay

    Obama can't close Gitmo because all the nations he's been sucking up to won't take the detainees.
    FRH
    If more sane people were armed the crazy ones would get off fewer shots.

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