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  1. #46
    Joined
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    5,171

    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay

    i thought he was just renaming it. i've seen things saying he has the detainees treated worse than bush.
    Max Plank: "A new scientific truth does not
    triumph by convincing its opponents and making them
    see the light,
    but rather because its opponents eventually die"
    Arthur Shopenhauer: "Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized.
    First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is opposed. Third, it is regarded as self evident."
    Martin Niemöller:
    "When the Nazis came for the communists,
    I remained silent;I was not a communist.
    When they locked up the social democrats,I remained silent;
    I was not a social democrat.When they came for the trade unionists,I did not speak out;
    I was not a trade unionist.When they came for the Jews,
    I remained silent;I wasn't a Jew.When they came for me,
    there was no one left to speak out."

  2. #47
    Joined
    Aug 2001
    Posts
    74,684

    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay

    Im sure the prisoner treatment is the same so I wouldnt buy into that notion.
    I think whats important is we can say what we like about GITMO but in the end? Its not the horrible [legal] option that was attached to Bush.
    More or less the new Administration has admitted that point I believe.

    Lets face the reality.
    These characters arent "pow's" as defined by anyone.
    They dont represent some country. No uniform.
    so they cannot be or should be treated like a captured soldier.
    Last edited by jimzinsocal; 06-06-2009 at 06:44 PM.

  3. #48
    Joined
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    5,171

    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay

    why did i get linked to stimulusrecoveryplan.net whenever i clicked on the 4 for page 4?
    Max Plank: "A new scientific truth does not
    triumph by convincing its opponents and making them
    see the light,
    but rather because its opponents eventually die"
    Arthur Shopenhauer: "Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized.
    First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is opposed. Third, it is regarded as self evident."
    Martin Niemöller:
    "When the Nazis came for the communists,
    I remained silent;I was not a communist.
    When they locked up the social democrats,I remained silent;
    I was not a social democrat.When they came for the trade unionists,I did not speak out;
    I was not a trade unionist.When they came for the Jews,
    I remained silent;I wasn't a Jew.When they came for me,
    there was no one left to speak out."

  4. #49
    Joined
    Aug 2001
    Posts
    74,684

    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay

    ? What page 4? Be more specific. And Ill look and make sure there isnt some bad linky

  5. #50
    Joined
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    5,171

    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay

    when you click to enter this thread, there's an option to go directly to page 4... i clicked that 4 and i got that website.
    Max Plank: "A new scientific truth does not
    triumph by convincing its opponents and making them
    see the light,
    but rather because its opponents eventually die"
    Arthur Shopenhauer: "Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized.
    First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is opposed. Third, it is regarded as self evident."
    Martin Niemöller:
    "When the Nazis came for the communists,
    I remained silent;I was not a communist.
    When they locked up the social democrats,I remained silent;
    I was not a social democrat.When they came for the trade unionists,I did not speak out;
    I was not a trade unionist.When they came for the Jews,
    I remained silent;I wasn't a Jew.When they came for me,
    there was no one left to speak out."

  6. #51
    Joined
    Mar 2002
    Location
    California
    Posts
    25,255

    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay

    A move sure to draw the furious thunder of crickets from the unusually silent left...

    An Outrage If Bush Had Proposed It

    The NY Times covers a trial balloon that would provoke outrage from the left if Bush-Cheney had proposed it. However, as the Times tells it, the proposal has no sponsorship at all - apparently it just fell from the sky, or something. Here we go:

    The Obama administration is considering a change in the law for the military commissions at the prison at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, that would clear the way for detainees facing the death penalty to plead guilty without a full trial.

    The provision could permit military prosecutors to avoid airing the details of brutal interrogation techniques. It could also allow the five detainees who have been charged with the Sept. 11 attacks to achieve their stated goal of pleading guilty to gain what they have called martyrdom.
    The proposal, in a draft of legislation that would be submitted to Congress, has not been publicly disclosed. It was circulated to officials under restrictions requiring secrecy. People who have read or been briefed on it said it had been presented to Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates by an administration task force on detention.
    Ordinarily I have no qualms about capital punishment but in this case, sending some jihadists off to collect their virgins, or raisins, or whatever without what the world would view as a fair trial can only lead to a public relations debacle of the sort I would expect the kinder, humbler (yet God-like!) Obama to avoid.

    Apparently this procedure is acceptable in conventional trials but not in the military courts:

    The provision would follow a recommendation of military prosecutors to clarify what they view as an oversight in the 2006 law that created the commissions. The law did not make clear if guilty pleas would be permitted in capital cases. Federal civilian courts and courts in most states with capital-punishment laws permit such pleas.[Although a legally-minded friend of mine reminds me that defendants plead to a charge, not a sentence; the sentencing phase of the proceeding is separate.]

    But American military justice law, which is the model for the military commission rules, bars members of the armed services who are facing capital charges from pleading guilty. Partly to assure fairness when execution is possible, court-martial prosecutors are required to prove guilt in a trial even against service members who want to plead guilty.

    During a December tribunal proceeding in Guantánamo, the five detainees charged with coordinating the Sept. 11 attacks said they wanted to plead guilty. Military prosecutors argued that they should be permitted to do so. Defense lawyers argued that tribunals should follow American military law and bar the guilty pleas. The military judge has not yet made a decision.
    And Obama's position? Who knows?!? The Times is utterly mystified:

    The draft legislation includes other changes administration officials disclosed last month when President Obama said he would continue the controversial military commission system with changes that would increase detainees’ rights. It is not known whether the White House has approved the proposed death penalty provision. A White House spokesman declined to comment.
    Sure, someone on the administration task force just snuck in that provision without anyone at the White House knowing or caring.

    I can see the benefits to the Administration of this trial balloon - lefties will howl and Obama can disavow the idea, reassuring us with something to the effect of 'that was not the task force I knew'.

    And when this plan is scrapped it will be just as well.
    The times is doing a pretty piss poor job of trying to disconnect the messiah from the crap being floated by his administration.

    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  7. #52
    Joined
    Mar 2002
    Location
    California
    Posts
    25,255

    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay

    The supposed smartest guy evar acting exactly how one would expect someone with no executive experience would..

    Obama Bows on Settling Detainees
    Administration Gives Up on Bringing Cleared Inmates to U.S., Officials Say




    Smart Power: Obama’s Uighur deal undermines Bermuda government

    Smoothe...
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  8. #53
    Joined
    May 2002
    Location
    Twain Harte, CA
    Posts
    18,492

    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay

    ^^^ The ones sent to Bermuda got the best deal.

    Its like some kinda bad joke.

  9. #54
    Joined
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Kern River Valley, CA
    Age
    69
    Posts
    13,722

    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay


  10. #55
    Joined
    Mar 2002
    Location
    California
    Posts
    25,255

    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay

    Oh this is f*cking getting better by the minute. So it was not an oversight.. Obama intentionally withheld the information from one of our closest allies until it was a done deal, for their own good of course. Hopeychangesmartpower in action.. way to go!

    US 'kept Guantanamo deal from UK'

    US 'kept Guantanamo deal from UK'

    A senior US official has told the BBC Washington decided not to tell London ahead of time about a deal to resettle four Guantanamo detainees in Bermuda.

    A diplomatic row blew up over Bermuda's decision to accept the four Chinese Muslim Uighurs on a US request.

    Bermuda is a British overseas territory but the US official said Washington had acted secretly to ensure success.

    Meanwhile the US said on Friday three Saudis at Guantanamo Bay had been transferred back to Saudi Arabia.

    The transfers are part of US President Barack Obama's strategy to close down the Guantanamo detention centre before next January.

    Hostility

    The unnamed senior official also told the BBC that Washington was attempting to shield the UK from Chinese anger.

    Beijing has demanded the return to China of all 17 Uighurs held by US forces but Washington says they could face persecution in China.

    Most of the Guantanamo detainees have not been convicted of any crime and yet the US fears they may face persecution or torture if they are repatriated. Meanwhile many Americans regard them with hostility.

    It was revealed earlier in the week that the tiny Pacific island of Palau had agreed to take some of the 17 Chinese Uighurs at the camp.

    But the four remaining, it later emerged, had been accepted by the Bermuda government. They arrived in Bermuda on Thursday.

    Pressed on whether the US had told the British government, an unnamed state department official was quoted as saying: "We did talk to them before the Uighurs got on the plane."

    We have underlined to the Bermuda government that it should have consulted the UK on whether this falls within their competence
    British Foreign Office
    Now a senior US official has told the BBC it was a deliberate decision not to consult London on the resettlement, after other countries came under pressure from China not to accept the Uighurs.

    In a highly unusual move, a senior US official said Washington opted to keep details of the deal from London until the last minute to enable Britain to deny all knowledge of the deal and thus avoid China's anger, says the BBC's Washington correspondent Kim Ghattas.

    The official said they expected London to be upset but added he felt the deal was made on solid ground, in direct talks with the Bermuda government, who accepted the men as part of guest worker programme.

    Bermuda blamed

    Britain, meanwhile, has expressed anger that it was not consulted, saying in a Foreign Office statement: "The Bermuda government consider this to be a matter regarding their day-to-day responsibility for immigration.

    "We have underlined to the Bermuda government that it should have consulted the UK on whether this falls within their competence or is a foreign affairs or security issue for which the Bermuda government do not have delegated responsibility."

    For the time being London has reserved its expressions of ire for Bermuda, with a spokesman for the UK prime minister insisting Bermuda bore "the primary responsibility for ensuring that the constitutional requirements on the Bermudan government were adhered to".

    Britain is supposed to handle Bermuda's defence, security and foreign affairs, but it delegates the authority to make decisions on immigration to Bermuda.

    The Foreign Office said it would "also be looking at the operation of the 'General Entrustment' which gives Bermuda the authority to conduct certain external relations on our behalf".

    Britain is also now helping Bermuda carry out a security assessment of the resettled detainees.

    But the US official pointed out that the Uighurs were cleared four years ago of any wrongdoing.

    On Friday, the US justice department said three Saudis - Khalid Saad Mohammed, Abdalaziz Kareem Salim al-Noofayaee and Ahmed Zaid Salim Zuhair had been approved for transfer back to Saudi Arabia.

    It said they had been cleared by the previous administration and would undergo a "rehabilitation programme" in Saudi Arabia.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  11. #56
    Joined
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Kern River Valley, CA
    Age
    69
    Posts
    13,722

    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter View Post
    Oh this is f*cking getting better by the minute. So it was not an oversight.. Obama intentionally withheld the information from one of our closest allies until it was a done deal, for their own good of course. Hopeychangesmartpower in action.. way to go!

    US 'kept Guantanamo deal from UK'


    He tossed old granny under the bus so I’m sure he had no qualms about throwing our closest ally under the bus.

  12. #57
    Joined
    Mar 2002
    Location
    California
    Posts
    25,255

    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay

    Nice... no tracking whatsoever apparently. AND as a bonus they will be free to travel after getting their passports in about a year. But we'll be able to decide then whether or not to block their entry into the US. And this a$$nine move only cost US $$200 million or so



    Brilliant!

    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  13. #58
    Joined
    Mar 2002
    Location
    California
    Posts
    25,255

    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay

    Smoothe...

    Palau Problems

    There have been two pieces of Palau and Uighur-related news since yesterday. The first was a New York Times op-ed by Stuart Beck, the South Pacific island of Palau’s representative to the United Nations. The second comes from the Wall Street Journal, which reports that at least some of the 13 remaining Uighurs at Gitmo don’t want to go to Palau.

    Four of the Uighur’s compatriots were recently transferred to Bermuda, which certainly has a superior nightlife to the relatively isolated and poor Palau. You would think the lack of a hopping nightlife in Palau is the real reason behind the Uighur jihadists’ reticence, but no. The Journal says the Uighurs, according to Obama administration officials, “have concerns about the lack of a Uighur community in Palau, and restrictions on becoming a citizen there.”

    We have apparently arrived at a point where the Uighurs -- who have been rejected by “more than 100 nations” -- are being picky about their final destination.

    Meanwhile, Stuart Beck is concerned about how the media has portrayed his nation’s agreement to take in some of the Uighurs held at Gitmo. Beck says that media reports suggesting Palau is receiving nearly $12 million in aid per Uighur are false. Palau has been in talks with the Obama administration about renewing its new aid package, Beck says, and Palau’s willingness to accept a number of Uighurs is not part of some quid pro quo.

    As Beck himself notes, the initial reporting on the Uighurs-for-cash deal came from the Associated Press. The AP cited two anonymous State Department officials in the Obama administration as saying that the Uighurs’ transfer was contingent upon Palau receiving $200 million in aid. $200 million in aid divided by 17 Uighurs gives you the $12 million per Uighur figure that Beck says is wrong.

    That has clearly changed since the AP’s account first ran. Four of the 17 Uighurs have been transferred to Bermuda, so Palau isn’t taking all 17 Uighurs. And now Beck says that the $200 million figure has never been discussed. Beck says the Obama administration has “offered to pay relocation costs for the Uighurs of less than $90,000 per person” and “no one has even hinted at linking the [aid] deal to Palau’s acceptance of the Uighurs.”

    Perhaps. The aid package is probably not intended to directly compensate Palau for its hospitality towards the Uighurs. But it is hard to believe that the aid package did not affect Palau’s willingness to accept the Uighurs in the first place. Beck notes that negotiations over the amount of aid Palau will receive are ongoing because the existing package runs out later this year. That makes it even more appealing for Palau to find a way to please the Obama administration, especially after more than 100 other nations turned down the administration’s request.

    And here is how Beck says the Obama team explained the situation to his government:

    President Obama, much admired in Palau, asked our new president, Johnson Toribiong, to do the United States a favor: Please accept, as refugees, a group of innocent Chinese Muslims. They are not anti-American terrorists, but victims of human rights violations, who landed at Guantánamo Bay for seven years. Innocent, stateless, harmless.
    Did Obama, or his surrogates, really describe the Uighurs detained at Gitmo in this manner? Did someone in the administration tell Palau’s president that they are “innocent,” “harmless,” “victims of human rights violations”?

    If so, this is hardly an accurate representation.

    A more accurate representation of the Uighurs detained at Gitmo would have started by pointing out that all of them are members or associates of the Eastern Turkistan Islamic Movement (“ETIM”), or its successor organization, the Turkistan Islamic Party (“TIP”). The ETIM/TIP has been designated an al Qaeda affiliate by both the UN and the United States.
    The Obama team should have explained that at least eight of the Uighurs have also admitted that they were trained by Abdul Haq, who has been designated an al Qaeda terrorist and a member of al Qaeda’s elite Shura council by Obama’s own Treasury Department.

    The Obama team should have also pointed out that nearly all of them trained at an ETIM camp in Tora Bora. And some of them have had severe behavioral problems at Gitmo too -- including one instance in which a Uighur detained threw a television because a woman’s bare arms were shown. Such is the radical nature of their beliefs.

    Certainly in this new era of transparency, the Obama team would have explained all of that to Palau.
    these guys.. really.. they all be cool.. though.. we dun evar want them here on US soil.

    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  14. #59
    Joined
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    5,171

    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay

    how did that cost $200 mil?
    Max Plank: "A new scientific truth does not
    triumph by convincing its opponents and making them
    see the light,
    but rather because its opponents eventually die"
    Arthur Shopenhauer: "Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized.
    First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is opposed. Third, it is regarded as self evident."
    Martin Niemöller:
    "When the Nazis came for the communists,
    I remained silent;I was not a communist.
    When they locked up the social democrats,I remained silent;
    I was not a social democrat.When they came for the trade unionists,I did not speak out;
    I was not a trade unionist.When they came for the Jews,
    I remained silent;I wasn't a Jew.When they came for me,
    there was no one left to speak out."

  15. #60
    Joined
    May 2002
    Location
    A Little South of Sanity
    Posts
    9,483

    Re: Shutting down Guantanamo Bay

    Quote Originally Posted by Poci View Post
    Why some of you are comparing Iraq to WW2 is beyond me

    Who cares about Guantanamo.

    Bushy boy promised to find Bin Laden right after 9/11 and he didnt.

    So let someone with brains do it.
    I believe many of those incarcetated at Gitmo are also from Afghanistan.
    Hillary +3

    "Walk Heavy, Stand Tall, Carry a Big Stick"
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