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  1. #76
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    Kern River Valley, CA
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    Re: Let's talk California

    Quote Originally Posted by bk94si View Post
    I hate to disagree but Prop 13 was a bad deal. If you move into a new house right next door to an identical house but those owners have lived there for 30 years, you are going to be paying way more in taxes. That doesn't seem right or fair to me.

    Also business that almost never move will not have their property taxes go up either. So new businesses will have a competitive disadvantage when going up against an established business.


    Q. I recently purchased a house, and I'm paying much higher property taxes than my neighbor. How can that be fair?

    A. This is a common criticism — and misunderstanding.

    Because Proposition 13 uses acquisition value (usually what the owner paid for the home) rather than the current market value as a basis of taxation, it is possible for owners of identical side-by-side properties to have significantly different tax bills. Those who have owned their property longer, often see that the current market value is much greater than the taxable value, which is limited to a 2% annual increase under Proposition 13.

    This cap on increases protects all owners from being taxed on "paper profits," the higher market value of a home from which the owner receives no benefit. Many homeowners who bought their property just ten years ago could not afford to buy their own homes at today's prices!

    The difference between actual value and taxable value disappears when the property changes hands. New buyers are taxed based on what they voluntarily agree to pay for their property. The real fairness in Proposition 13 is in how it works once a home is purchased. It controls taxes on all property by restricting the maximum rate (1%) and by limiting annual increases in assessed valuation (2% annually).

    Some politicians continue to argue that this acquisition-value system is unfair, that everyone should pay based on current market value. If the value of a home increases by 15% in one year, taxes should increase the same amount. These arguments come from those seeking higher taxes on all property owners, not those who want to provide tax relief to new buyers.

    Those who focus on the difference in taxable values of properties ignore the fact that property tax assessments prior to Proposition 13 showed an even wider divergence than under the current Proposition 13 system.

    This points to another great unfairness of the old assessment system, when homeowners were at the mercy of the tax collectors — assessors who could arbitrarily increase assessed value and, with that, increase taxes. By using acquisition value, Proposition 13 links the property tax to ability to pay, an important standard of fairness in taxation.

    Alternatives to Proposition 13 are also bad for homeowners. A recent California Policy Seminar showed that more than 90% of elderly property owners would be negatively impacted by any proposed diversion from Proposition 13. Suggested alternatives would also result in widespread tax increases. For one example, almost half of all Los Angeles County homeowners would be hit with tax hikes of more than 160%.

    Under Proposition 13, all homeowners on the block share key benefits — they pay far less in property taxes than without Proposition 13, they pay far less than property owners in other states that don't have these kinds of protections, and they all have the absolute certainty as to what their tax bills will be in future years, without concern for skyrocketing property values or arbitrary assessors working for greedy local governments.

    If you have just purchased your home and are still uncertain about the value of Proposition 13 to you, just wait until after three or four years of double-digit inflation in the housing market. When you realize that you are saving hundreds, even thousands of dollars a year on your property taxes, you will join the ranks of enthusiastic supporters of Proposition 13.


    http://www.hjta.org/faq/#proptax_1
    Its not as unfair as you think.

  2. #77
    Joined
    Aug 2003
    Location
    West Richland, WA
    Posts
    6,397

    Re: Let's talk California

    Still seems to me like shifting the tax burden to newer business owners and homeowners.
    Brian

  3. #78
    Joined
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    Kern River Valley, CA
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    Re: Let's talk California

    What it’s doing is saving new home owners and businesses money in the long run.

  4. #79
    Joined
    May 2002
    Location
    Twain Harte, CA
    Posts
    20,446

    Re: Let's talk California

    Being in the business of new homes and commercial property in California, I can tell you that the anticipated property taxes has never presented itself as a problem for any of my clients. In truth, just the opposite. The knowledge of what the tax will be over the long term is a plus. The rate of (roughly) 1% has not been considered a "big hit" for any of my clients. I've heard gripes about real estate commissions, loan interest rates, building permit fees, costs of environmental impact studies, contractors' profits, all that kinda stuff, but not property taxes.

    I've simply never heard a downside from any of my clients to prop. 13.

    Personally, I like it.

    All taxation should be as predictable.

  5. #80
    Joined
    Aug 2003
    Location
    West Richland, WA
    Posts
    6,397

    Re: Let's talk California

    I agree with the lower taxes and predictability but it still strikes me as fundamentally unfair when 2 people with identical homes and identical incomes can pay wildly different property tax rates. :shrug:
    Brian

  6. #81
    Joined
    May 2002
    Location
    Twain Harte, CA
    Posts
    20,446

    Re: Let's talk California

    Think of it this way, two identical houses with two entirely different prices, likely purchased in two different pricing environments.

    A little twisted thinking could even justify that a home is only worth what it sells for and that all appraisals are sketchy because the true value of anything is only determined when someone is willing to put cash on the line for it.

    Income has nothing to do with property taxes.

  7. #82
    Joined
    Jun 2003
    Location
    SO CAL USA
    Age
    68
    Posts
    1,602

    Re: Let's talk California

    Quote Originally Posted by bk94si View Post
    I hate to disagree but Prop 13 was a bad deal. If you move into a new house right next door to an identical house but those owners have lived there for 30 years, you are going to be paying way more in taxes. That doesn't seem right or fair to me.

    Also business that almost never move will not have their property taxes go up either. So new businesses will have a competitive disadvantage when going up against an established business.
    Well I pay 4 grand a year in property tax.My manager was going to buy the house 2 lots from me,He couldnt afford the 8 grand it was going to cost him a year.Hell I couldnt pay 670 a month on top of the mortgage and I dont have car payments.Good thing he backed out or he would have lost everything when the market dropped like the illegals did who bought the house.6 families with 10 cars on the street were a BIG pain in the ass.Then one day BIG garage sale and they took off in the middle of the night.Nice street party when everyone realized the clown house was gone.And that included the 2 mexican families who are here LEGALLY.If there were only 10 million other property owners in Cal paying what I pay for a 320k house,that makes 40 Billion a year.Theres 38 million people here and a hell of a lot of them around here have 500k to 1 million and up homes,so I'm pretty sure they get enough in property tax revenue, on top of the 10% sales tax,the business taxes Etc.The fact that one in every 1000 californians works for the state is a big part of the problem.The other part is subsidizing the proliferation of clown houses for the illegals.They chased out the majority of the 140 billion a year in revenue taxpayers they had,now they need to collect on the billions in investments they made on illegals or boot them out.I paid the medical bills when the illegal almost killed my wife making an illegal turn,and ill be damned if Im going to sit back and watch them continue to get free medical and everything else while we couldnt.Time for another emailing to Boxer and Feinstein.They cant understand why a loyal democrat would have such opposing views to theirs on immigration,LOL.
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  8. #83
    Joined
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Corruptfornia
    Posts
    3,785
    Those shifty Dems up in Sac pulled a fast one. Hard to believe they
    would show up at all, but on a Sunday ? Now that I see what they
    were up to, it's not really surprising. Of course due moronic spending
    habits, they again want the working stiff to pick up the check and
    here's how..>

    http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/loc...%3Ftrack%3Drss
    Reporting from Sacramento -- Democratic leaders in the state Assembly, frustrated by the refusal of Republicans to support tax hikes to help balance the state budget, pushed through a proposal Sunday night that uses a series of legal maneuvers to put higher levies in place without any GOP votes.

    Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has vowed to veto any budget package that includes tax increases, and he vetoed a budget last winter that contained a similar tax ploy.

    The move, coming as the state is days away from having to issue IOUs instead of paying its bills, is unlikely to do much to break the legislative logjam.

    The plan, approved in a rare Sunday night session, would balance the budget with the help of more than $2 billion in new taxes on smokers, oil companies, drivers and homeowners. State Senate leaders said they would take up the bill today.

    Included in the package are a tax increase of $1.50 per pack of cigarettes, a 9.9% extraction tax on oil companies, a $15 vehicle license fee surcharge to fund state parks and a charge on homeowner insurance premiums to pay for emergency response systems.

    Assembly Speaker Karen Bass (D-Los Angeles) said her caucus would push the package through to make the point that it is prepared to take action to close California's $24-billion deficit. The tax hikes account for a small share of revisions being considered late Sunday that included cuts in schools, healthcare programs and other government services as well as billions of dollars in deferrals and other accounting shifts that push state expenses into future years.

    Assembly Speaker Karen Bass (D-Los Angeles) said her caucus would push the package through to make the point that it is prepared to take action to close California's $24-billion deficit. The tax hikes account for a small share of revisions being considered late Sunday that included cuts in schools, healthcare programs and other government services as well as billions of dollars in deferrals and other accounting shifts that push state expenses into future years.

    "We just feel that it is very important that we act with or without [a budget] agreement," she said.
    Do the cuts, stop payments to illegal aliens, do away with the state
    owned gas guzzler vehicles legislators use as well as cutting their
    eats, gas and other expenses down. There are many state gov
    side jobs that could be combined to cut the cost, and I wonder
    just how many "little departments" there really are that get a
    big slice of the budget and we don't even know that they exist ?

    I want a full disclosure of all these dept's, and just where all the
    money IS going ! I am so tired of seeing my lil pi** poor paycheck
    getting bled out even more so.

    What's really disheartening is the fact it isn't just Dems now...The
    GOP best not throw any stones before it checks it's house as well.

    Screw em !

  9. #84
    Joined
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Kern River Valley, CA
    Age
    71
    Posts
    21,569

    Re: Let's talk California

    Quote Originally Posted by THOMAS LYNN View Post
    Well I pay 4 grand a year in property tax.My manager was going to buy the house 2 lots from me,He couldnt afford the 8 grand it was going to cost him a year.Hell I couldnt pay 670 a month on top of the mortgage and I dont have car payments.Good thing he backed out or he would have lost everything when the market dropped like the illegals did who bought the house.6 families with 10 cars on the street were a BIG pain in the ass.Then one day BIG garage sale and they took off in the middle of the night.Nice street party when everyone realized the clown house was gone.And that included the 2 mexican families who are here LEGALLY.If there were only 10 million other property owners in Cal paying what I pay for a 320k house,that makes 40 Billion a year.Theres 38 million people here and a hell of a lot of them around here have 500k to 1 million and up homes,so I'm pretty sure they get enough in property tax revenue, on top of the 10% sales tax,the business taxes Etc.The fact that one in every 1000 californians works for the state is a big part of the problem.The other part is subsidizing the proliferation of clown houses for the illegals.They chased out the majority of the 140 billion a year in revenue taxpayers they had,now they need to collect on the billions in investments they made on illegals or boot them out.I paid the medical bills when the illegal almost killed my wife making an illegal turn,and ill be damned if Im going to sit back and watch them continue to get free medical and everything else while we couldnt.Time for another emailing to Boxer and Feinstein.They cant understand why a loyal democrat would have such opposing views to theirs on immigration,LOL.



    Without proposition 13 those property tax numbers would undoubtedly be double or triple what they are currently. Prop. 13 was a hotly contested issue in California there were month and month’s contentious coverage on the tube and in the papers. In Fact I think 13 was the most discussed and argued ballot proposition ever in California history. It wasn’t like the voters didn’t know what they were doing when they passed 13.

    I think if California was able to solve the out of control illegal immigration problem many of the budget shortfalls would disappear. Anybody that doubts that should try living in one of California’s big cities for a year or 2.

    btw… My wife was broadsided by an illegal years ago with all 3 on my kids onboard. Luckily the kids only had minor injuries but my wife ended up having three surgeries to heal her injuries. Of course the illegal had no insurance. The only thing that saved us from expensive medical bills was uninsured motorists’ coverage.

  10. #85
    Joined
    Mar 2002
    Location
    California
    Posts
    26,273

    Re: Let's talk California

    In related news... the SEIU, a handful of other unions and BART employees are looking to go on strike because they refuse to negotiate their cradle to grave benefit package or a possible salary freeze despite a projected $250 million budget deficit over the next four years. These d@mn unions and their members are not smart enough to realize how good they have it comparatively. Shame it's not private sector... I'd be all for cutting these f*ckers loose and replacing the lot of em... with the illegal aliens the liberals here seem so fond of. Then I'd be able to take great satisfaction in saying they are willing to do the work overpaid union pukes refuse to do.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  11. #86
    Joined
    Feb 2003
    Location
    SC
    Age
    65
    Posts
    314

    Re: Let's talk California

    Maybe some good liberal union workers will lose their jobs, then we can see how they like it. Then those union workers can be replaced with illeagals.
    Happy days to come.
    Dr. Seuss for 2011:I do not like this Uncle Sam, I do not like his health care scam. I do not like these dirty crooks, or how they lie and cook the books. I do not like when Congress steals, I do not like their secret deals. I do not like ex-speaker Nan, I do not like this 'YES WE CAN'..I do not like this spending spree, I'm smart, I know that nothing's free. I do not like their smug replies, when I complain about their lies. I do not like this kind of hope. I do not like it. Nope, nope, nope!

  12. #87
    Joined
    May 2002
    Location
    Twain Harte, CA
    Posts
    20,446

    Re: Let's talk California

    My manager was going to buy the house 2 lots from me,He couldnt afford the 8 grand it was going to cost him a year.
    Sounds like your manager was saved from a terrible investment by prop. 13.

    Imagine his dismay had the taxes been raised by the politicians AFTER he moved in, in order to fund their over spending.

    Let's face it, if he couldn't afford $8,000 in property taxes, maintaining an $800,000 home is probably outside of his price range.

  13. #88
    Joined
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Corruptfornia
    Posts
    3,785

    Re: Let's talk California

    Jeez..One simply can't win in this state. Now Pensioner's may
    face a tax on their pensions over a certain amount. I don't know
    if this is just for state workers or if 401K's are involved or what
    the heck, but it's not right.

    http://www.lao.ca.gov/ballot/2009/090203.aspx
    Pursuant to Elections Code Section 9005, we have reviewed the proposed statutory initiative related to the taxation of pension income (A.G. File No. 09‑0006).
    Background

    The state levies a personal income tax (PIT) on the California income of individuals who reside in the state. Tax rates range from 1 percent to 9.3 percent, depending upon the taxpayer's income level. An extra 1 percent tax is levied on the portion of taxpayers' income that exceeds $1 million. In general, the state taxes individuals based on income earned while they reside in California. The state currently taxes most pension distributions as ordinary income.

    California also levies excise taxes on specific goods. The state, for example, currently imposes excise taxes on the sale of tobacco products and alcohol.
    Proposal

    The measure would establish new taxes on pension income beginning in 2010. Specifically, the measure would create:

    A PIT surcharge on resident taxpayers who receive more than $40,000 of taxable pension income.

    An excise tax on nonresidents or people who move out of the state whose vested pension benefits from a California employer exceed $50,000 per year.

    Surcharge on Resident Pension Income

    Under the proposal, a surcharge would be added to the existing tax liability for pension income in excess of $40,000. The surcharge would increase as the amount of pension income increases, so that pension income above $150,000 would receive a tax surcharge of 60 percent. For example, a couple receiving pension income of $160,000 with no other income and only the standard deduction would pay $9,637 in regular taxes (at the 9.3 percent top rate) and a surcharge of $56,750. Figure 1 displays the proposed surcharge schedule.



    Figure 1

    Proposed Pension Income Surcharge

    Taxable Pension
    Income


    Surcharge

    Under $40,000




    $40,000 to $50,000


    $5,000 + 20 percent of pension income over $40,000

    $50,000 to $75,000


    $7,000 + 35 percent of pension income over $50,000

    $75,000 to $100,000


    $15,750 + 40 percent of pension income over $75,000

    $100,000 to 150,000


    $25,750 + 50 percent of pension income over $100,000

    Over $150,000


    $50,750 + 60 percent of pension income over $150,000


    Excise Tax on Pensions of Nonresidents and Former Residents

    The proposal also imposes an excise tax on the "fair market value" of vested pension benefits from California employers that are received by nonresident taxpayers and by people who move out of the state. Under the proposal, the state would levy an excise tax of 35 percent. Fair market value is defined as the amount of pension benefits above $50,000 that the taxpayer's vested pension benefits would provide on average over the individual's remaining life expectancy, as determined by the state Franchise Tax Board (FTB). The taxpayer would be permitted to pay the excise tax as a lump sum or over time.
    I had read that this was brought up a few years back and the
    courts shot it down. Let's hope they have the same sense..
    Last edited by no2guncntrl; 06-29-2009 at 04:24 PM.

  14. #89
    Joined
    May 2002
    Location
    Twain Harte, CA
    Posts
    20,446

    Re: Let's talk California

    ^^^ OPM

    Other Peoples' Money

    Its toxic.

    Its as if our ballot box choices have gone completely unheeded. We asked the dolts in Sacramento, in very clear terms, to stop the taxation and to cut the spending. In response, they're looking at every cash seizure available, from cigarette taxes and DMV fees to seizures designed to keep retired folks in the state.

    Idiots.

  15. #90
    Joined
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Kern River Valley, CA
    Age
    71
    Posts
    21,569

    Re: Let's talk California

    The law makers are really getting frantic now. Full blown panic has set in…


    Get the popcorn and watch them squirm…

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