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  1. #1546
    Joined
    May 2002
    Location
    Twain Harte, CA
    Posts
    17,106

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Hey, what's to worry? With Sebelius in charge of HHS and a kazillion new empowerments to her position comin' through Obamacare, she'll be thinkin' of nothin' but keepin' us all nice 'n healthy.

  2. #1547
    Joined
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,690

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    And whos fault is this? You better look in the mirror. For 6 years you let the so called Conservatives run wild and get kick out of office. But then again they are all cut from the same cloth. They all like more spending as long as it is to their district and ballooning the debt.
    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...iet-coup/7364/

    Must see video
    http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-money-masters/

    If workers are more insecure, that's very healthy for the society, because if workers are insecure they won't ask for wages, they won't go on strike, they won't call for benefits;, they'll serve the masters gladly and passively, And that's optimal for corporations.

    Alan Greenspan

  3. #1548
    Joined
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    5,171

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by falcon_view View Post
    Drugs of the same type or treat the same need to be put on a rating system where the sales person is only allowed to address a board of review. Those on the board would be required to summit to a full review of their finances and travels while on, before and 5 years after leaving the board. If found to have any connection or dealings with a drug company it would be a mandatory 10 year prison term.

    Yep, it would be hard to find "good" people to serve but the rest you wouldn't want on the board.
    you'd have us imprison the entire pharmaceutical industry?!
    Max Plank: "A new scientific truth does not
    triumph by convincing its opponents and making them
    see the light,
    but rather because its opponents eventually die"
    Arthur Shopenhauer: "Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized.
    First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is opposed. Third, it is regarded as self evident."
    Martin Niemöller:
    "When the Nazis came for the communists,
    I remained silent;I was not a communist.
    When they locked up the social democrats,I remained silent;
    I was not a social democrat.When they came for the trade unionists,I did not speak out;
    I was not a trade unionist.When they came for the Jews,
    I remained silent;I wasn't a Jew.When they came for me,
    there was no one left to speak out."

  4. #1549
    Joined
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    5,171

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by tucker View Post
    I agree drugs are over prescribed, over priced and over publicized but without a doubt I believe some drugs improve the quality of life and some drugs save lives. I’m not defending big pharma I’m just saying it would be very foolish to overreact and destroy whatever good work they do.

    I don’t care what you eat, how much you exercise or how good of care you take of your body you are still prone to disease and injury. Better control is in order but destruction of the pharmaceutical industry is suicide…
    the problem is that we've given one part of the health industry as a whole a gluttonous monopoly in which only these precious (they wouldn't cost so god damned much if they weren't! ) pharmaceuticals are viewed as a valid option. that natural health does work! (been there, tried that)... and it works at least as well as the pharmaceuticals (and unlike the pharmaceuticals has never done near irreparable harm to my body).

    the other problem is that we have an fda... having an fda makes it to where we have a one stop shopping extravaganza for all corrupt market minded drug dealers/reps.

    what we need is an fda that bans nothing, only provides recommendations (it's my god damned body and i'll be the one to decide what i want done to it! after all, if i can't get access to a certain treatment then my right has be infringed upon), and is made at the state level. we need multiple fda's so that we have more of a system of checks and balances instead of one almighty all corruptible entity.

    absolute power corrupts absolutely. ergo, why the hell should any entity or small conglomeration of entities have such say over our health?



    this is another place where the government would be best off shoving its nose back up its ass where it came from instead of dicking about in other people's business.


    and many of these drugs are VERY harmful.

    funny thing is though, that why some of these VERY harmful drugs are harmful in the lackadaisical way they are currently used (prednisone for example... a steroidal anti inflammatory that WILL screw you up if you use for more than a few days and is commonly prescribed for more than a few days... it can be a life saver in emergency situations that require a reduction of swelling.)....


    it never ceases to amaze me that we trust these companies own studies to verify the usefulness of a drug.

    if i recall correctly, the FDA doesn't actually verify that a drug is safe. it only verifies that a drug manufacturer thinks it's safe.
    Max Plank: "A new scientific truth does not
    triumph by convincing its opponents and making them
    see the light,
    but rather because its opponents eventually die"
    Arthur Shopenhauer: "Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized.
    First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is opposed. Third, it is regarded as self evident."
    Martin Niemöller:
    "When the Nazis came for the communists,
    I remained silent;I was not a communist.
    When they locked up the social democrats,I remained silent;
    I was not a social democrat.When they came for the trade unionists,I did not speak out;
    I was not a trade unionist.When they came for the Jews,
    I remained silent;I wasn't a Jew.When they came for me,
    there was no one left to speak out."

  5. #1550
    Joined
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    5,171

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by falcon_view View Post
    And whos fault is this? You better look in the mirror. For 6 years you let the so called Conservatives run wild and get kick out of office. But then again they are all cut from the same cloth. They all like more spending as long as it is to their district and ballooning the debt.
    there aren't any conservatives or liberals in office. there's just a bunch of •••• sucking jackasses trying to figure out which bit of our pie they're gonna get and how to go about gettin it!
    Max Plank: "A new scientific truth does not
    triumph by convincing its opponents and making them
    see the light,
    but rather because its opponents eventually die"
    Arthur Shopenhauer: "Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized.
    First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is opposed. Third, it is regarded as self evident."
    Martin Niemöller:
    "When the Nazis came for the communists,
    I remained silent;I was not a communist.
    When they locked up the social democrats,I remained silent;
    I was not a social democrat.When they came for the trade unionists,I did not speak out;
    I was not a trade unionist.When they came for the Jews,
    I remained silent;I wasn't a Jew.When they came for me,
    there was no one left to speak out."

  6. #1551
    Joined
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Kern River Valley, CA
    Age
    66
    Posts
    9,642

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by old82 View Post
    the problem is that we've given one part of the health industry as a whole a gluttonous monopoly in which only these precious (they wouldn't cost so god damned much if they weren't! ) pharmaceuticals are viewed as a valid option. that natural health does work! (been there, tried that)... and it works at least as well as the pharmaceuticals (and unlike the pharmaceuticals has never done near irreparable harm to my body).

    the other problem is that we have an fda... having an fda makes it to where we have a one stop shopping extravaganza for all corrupt market minded drug dealers/reps.

    what we need is an fda that bans nothing, only provides recommendations (it's my god damned body and i'll be the one to decide what i want done to it! after all, if i can't get access to a certain treatment then my right has be infringed upon), and is made at the state level. we need multiple fda's so that we have more of a system of checks and balances instead of one almighty all corruptible entity.

    absolute power corrupts absolutely. ergo, why the hell should any entity or small conglomeration of entities have such say over our health?



    this is another place where the government would be best off shoving its nose back up its ass where it came from instead of dicking about in other people's business.


    and many of these drugs are VERY harmful.

    funny thing is though, that why some of these VERY harmful drugs are harmful in the lackadaisical way they are currently used (prednisone for example... a steroidal anti inflammatory that WILL screw you up if you use for more than a few days and is commonly prescribed for more than a few days... it can be a life saver in emergency situations that require a reduction of swelling.)....


    it never ceases to amaze me that we trust these companies own studies to verify the usefulness of a drug.

    if i recall correctly, the FDA doesn't actually verify that a drug is safe. it only verifies that a drug manufacturer thinks it's safe.


    Nobody is forcing you to take any drugs and I’m sure you probably don’t take any. But would it be ok with you if I take a few different drugs so I can stay among the living?

    I mean I sure would appreciate it…

  7. #1552
    Joined
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Arizona's White Mountains
    Age
    68
    Posts
    3,531

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by tucker View Post
    Nobody is forcing you to take any drugs and I’m sure you probably don’t take any. But would it be ok with you if I take a few different drugs so I can stay among the living?

    I mean I sure would appreciate it…
    You got my permission.
    FRH
    If more sane people were armed the crazy ones would get off fewer shots.

    Win XP Pro SP3 / MEPIS 8.0.15 / MEPIS 11

  8. #1553
    Joined
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Kern River Valley, CA
    Age
    66
    Posts
    9,642

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank1946 View Post
    You got my permission.


    Thanks...

  9. #1554
    Joined
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    5,171

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by tucker View Post
    Nobody is forcing you to take any drugs and I’m sure you probably don’t take any. But would it be ok with you if I take a few different drugs so I can stay among the living?

    I mean I sure would appreciate it…
    i didn't feel like reading through my argument again and have no idea what i wrote... (if you count fluoride as a drug... it is a treatment... then they do force most people to take it... anyway)

    but my stance is, a person's body is their own temple. they should be allowed to put in what they want, and nothing should be put in that person's body against that person's will except through acts of god/nature (in other words, they shouldn't force fluoride into your drinking water if you don't want to drink it, but if there's a bit of air in the pipes, well, suck it up and deal with it... you get the idea).


    the fda should not ban anything. what goes into one's own body should be one's own choice.
    Max Plank: "A new scientific truth does not
    triumph by convincing its opponents and making them
    see the light,
    but rather because its opponents eventually die"
    Arthur Shopenhauer: "Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized.
    First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is opposed. Third, it is regarded as self evident."
    Martin Niemöller:
    "When the Nazis came for the communists,
    I remained silent;I was not a communist.
    When they locked up the social democrats,I remained silent;
    I was not a social democrat.When they came for the trade unionists,I did not speak out;
    I was not a trade unionist.When they came for the Jews,
    I remained silent;I wasn't a Jew.When they came for me,
    there was no one left to speak out."

  10. #1555
    Joined
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Kern River Valley, CA
    Age
    66
    Posts
    9,642

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by old82 View Post
    i didn't feel like reading through my argument again and have no idea what i wrote... (if you count fluoride as a drug... it is a treatment... then they do force most people to take it... anyway)

    but my stance is, a person's body is their own temple. they should be allowed to put in what they want, and nothing should be put in that person's body against that person's will except through acts of god/nature (in other words, they shouldn't force fluoride into your drinking water if you don't want to drink it, but if there's a bit of air in the pipes, well, suck it up and deal with it... you get the idea).


    the fda should not ban anything. what goes into one's own body should be one's own choice.

    The way you rant about the drug companies it’s like you think all medications are useless and bad for people. Of course all drugs have unwanted side effects and good doctors take that into account before they write a prescription. The whole idea of drugs is improving the quality of life and in a lot of cases saving lives.

    There are a lot of problems with big Pharma but on the other hand they do a lot of good things.

  11. #1556
    Joined
    Nov 2001
    Location
    E n g l a n d
    Posts
    10,979

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Senator Max Baucus has a little too much medicinal whiskey:


  12. #1557
    Joined
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Crazy AZ USA
    Posts
    3,516

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Enmore View Post
    Senator Max Baucus has a little too much medicinal whiskey:

    Lotsa valor was found at the bottom of a bottle.

    That's probably why he didn't have the brains to just say no.
    "We say in our platform that we believe that the right to coin money and issue money is a function of government....

    Those who are opposed to this proposition tell us that the issue of paper money is a function of the bank and that the government ought to go out of the banking business. I stand with Jefferson rather than with them, and tell them, as he did, that the issue of money is a function of the government and that the banks should go out of the governing business."

    William Jennings Bryan.

  13. #1558
    Joined
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    8,132

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by AeroSim View Post
    Lotsa valor was found at the bottom of a bottle.

    That's probably why he didn't have the brains to just say no.
    Funny how the man's logical statements were too clear to be from someone drunk. He made good points, but now the bloggers are deciding as fact that he was drunk as opposed to tired. The same thing has been done with Biden and all that does is make me wonder how logic gets short circuited away from talking a bout a topic and onto assumed, imagined, and unprovable character assassination.

  14. #1559
    Joined
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Crazy AZ USA
    Posts
    3,516

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by otoc View Post
    Funny how the man's logical statements were too clear to be from someone drunk. He made good points, but now the bloggers are deciding as fact that he was drunk as opposed to tired. The same thing has been done with Biden and all that does is make me wonder how logic gets short circuited away from talking a bout a topic and onto assumed, imagined, and unprovable character assassination.
    otoc,

    He got what he wanted out of it. I haven't decided if this is just so much self-righteousness, conscience mitgation or both- drunk tired or everything in between. I just know that I just got done talking with some Canadians who actually looked at the bill and were appalled by our plan.

    I don't know what it is going to take to convince you that this bill will only serve to screw and impoverish you more. Perhaps when you are completely unemployed, can't find good work, standing in a soup line, family members are dead or dying from a lack of care, and this health insurance disguised as healthcare doesn't go into effect for another year or two? Unless, of course, you are already working for the government or a profiting financial.

    This bill murders any concept of care or decency except, of course, for whoever "they" want to grant it to. You will find out very shortly that we can't swing this and it is nothing of what we wanted because our politicians and financial leaders are nothing but lying debt spenders trying to generate more capital to pay interest. I read this bill and know the state of our economy. I will soon read it again knowing that the mortgage crisis I promised you is getting ready to hit you between the eyes with a pair of maced fists. Just know that you trusted exactly the same people with your health- and that it will neither be better or more cost effective.

    We are only scratching the surface of the financial atrocity the government and financials have afflicted us with, but soon the fruits will bloom. They don't give a sh*t about We the People- just their bottom line and some vague sense that their being rich in some way helps you. Maybe then you may become outraged- unless you are pocketing the profits of course.
    Last edited by AeroSim; 12-30-2009 at 11:46 AM.
    "We say in our platform that we believe that the right to coin money and issue money is a function of government....

    Those who are opposed to this proposition tell us that the issue of paper money is a function of the bank and that the government ought to go out of the banking business. I stand with Jefferson rather than with them, and tell them, as he did, that the issue of money is a function of the government and that the banks should go out of the governing business."

    William Jennings Bryan.

  15. #1560
    Joined
    May 2002
    Location
    A Little South of Sanity
    Posts
    6,947

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by otoc View Post
    Funny how the man's logical statements were too clear to be from someone drunk. He made good points, but now the bloggers are deciding as fact that he was drunk as opposed to tired. The same thing has been done with Biden and all that does is make me wonder how logic gets short circuited away from talking a bout a topic and onto assumed, imagined, and unprovable character assassination.
    Logical statements? Good points? Sounded like drunken babbling to me.

    What if he was a republican? Would the drunkeness still be ok? If he were against the great health care giveaway?
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