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  1. #1561
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveW View Post
    Logical statements? Good points? Sounded like drunken babbling to me.

    What if he was a republican? Would the drunkeness still be ok? If he were against the great health care giveaway?
    What if the GOP got on board to make change as opposed to opposing. What if this, what if that.

    Apparently we heard different versions. I can respect that.

  2. #1562
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by otoc View Post
    What if the GOP got on board to make change as opposed to opposing. What if this, what if that.

    Apparently we heard different versions. I can respect that.
    Exactly.
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  3. #1563
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by AeroSim View Post
    I just know that I just got done talking with some Canadians who actually looked at the bill and were appalled by our plan.

    I don't know what it is going to take to convince you that this bill will only serve to screw and impoverish you more. Perhaps when you are completely unemployed, can't find good work, standing in a soup line, family members are dead or dying from a lack of care, and this health insurance disguised as healthcare doesn't go into effect for another year or two? Unless, of course, you are already working for the government or a profiting financial.

    This bill murders any concept of care or decency except, of course, for whoever "they" want to grant it to. You will find out very shortly that we can't swing this and it is nothing of what we wanted because our politicians and financial leaders are nothing but lying debt spenders trying to generate more capital to pay interest. I read this bill and know the state of our economy. I will soon read it again knowing that the mortgage crisis I promised you is getting ready to hit you between the eyes with a pair of maced fists. Just know that you trusted exactly the same people with your health- and that it will neither be better or more cost effective.

    We are only scratching the surface of the financial atrocity the government and financials have afflicted us with, but soon the fruits will bloom. They don't give a sh*t about We the People- just their bottom line and some vague sense that their being rich in some way helps you. Maybe then you may become outraged- unless you are pocketing the profits of course.
    Aero, you've covered too much for me to take time on today but I think I've made it clear that the compromises that have occurred have watered down and distorted a full reval of health.

    To me, it was more important to overcome inertia that the past administrations have had to deal with and make some change to begin the process.

    As to the cost of health, having been self employed for the last 10 years I've seen first hand the annual cost increases each year having to pay 100% of the premium. I'm watching to see if premium increases lower.

    I've looked at the bills and see financial help for those making 400% over the poverty level. That will help the average taxpayer.

    So what if those who make a lot have to pay more or that teeth were written into the bill for penalties if people don't buy into health. You and I have had the conversation in the past as to the true cost of health being higher because those without default from their bills.

    Is it perfect? No. Do I know how it will actually be evaluated? No. No one does. Can it be changed? Yes.

    If only we focused on where we all agree instead of where we don't.

  4. #1564
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    In this case something isnít better than nothing. Once legislation is passed especially something this massive and expensive itís almost impossible to stop the pending train wreck.

    Kill it and start all over this time make the process transparent and really bipartisan. We donít need major surgery all we need is an outpatient procedure.

  5. #1565
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by tucker View Post
    In this case something isnít better than nothing. Once legislation is passed especially something this massive and expensive itís almost impossible to stop the pending train wreck.

    Kill it and start all over this time make the process transparent and really bipartisan. We donít need major surgery all we need is an outpatient procedure.
    this wasn't really bipartisan?
    Senators Closer To Health Package
    Bipartisan Talks On Reform Move Toward Center


    By Shailagh Murray and Lori Montgomery
    Washington Post Staff Writers
    Thursday, August 6, 2009

    Senate negotiators are inching toward bipartisan agreement on a health-care plan that seeks middle ground on some of the thorniest issues facing Congress, offering the fragile outlines of a legislative consensus even as the political battle over reform intensifies outside Washington.

    The emerging Finance Committee bill would shave about $100 billion off the projected trillion-dollar cost of the legislation over the next decade and eventually provide coverage to 94 percent of Americans, according to participants in the talks. It would expand Medicaid, crack down on insurers, abandon the government insurance option that President Obama is seeking and, for the first time, tax health-care benefits under the most generous plans. Backers say the bill would also offer the only concrete plan before Congress for reining in the skyrocketing cost of federal health programs over the long term.
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    Three Democrats and three Republicans from the Senate Finance Committee will brief Obama on Thursday about the progress of their sometimes arduous talks, which are now set to extend through the August recess. The negotiators are holding the details close as they continue to debate key issues, and it could be a challenge for them to meet the Sept. 15 deadline set by the committee's chairman, Max Baucus (D-Mont.), for a deal.

  6. #1566
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    ^^^ Are you serious?

    That's the example you have for bi-partisanship? A pending Senate Finance Committee briefing from August?

    Kumbayah.

  7. #1567
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchcedar View Post
    ^^^ Are you serious?

    That's the example you have for bi-partisanship? A pending Senate Finance Committee briefing from August?

    Kumbayah.
    I believe you stopped short in your thinking at the word briefing. The briefing was about the Senate Finance version of the bill. The Senate Finance committee was comprised of what parties?

    To tuckers original point of "really bipartisan", it takes two willing partners. The offer went out, the answer was to obstruct to embarrass the dems. In spite of that, compromises (because of GOP criticisms) the dems made also reflected bi-partisanship. It was only a matter of time before the GOP soundbite became a self fulfilling prophesy, which I personally think took too long and deflated where real change could take effect.

    Go sing your song to someone who only reads one sided blogs for the news so that it's all interpreted for them. I'm sure they'll buy it.

  8. #1568
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by otoc View Post
    I believe you stopped short in your thinking at the word briefing. The briefing was about the Senate Finance version of the bill. The Senate Finance committee was comprised of what parties?
    And the members of that committee that supported that bill at the time were whom, otoc? Your painting of this committee as being fully behind the bill in a true bi-partisan manner is patently false if my memory serves correctly. The Democrats control the committee by majority vote.

    Be that as it may, that you have to reach back to August, back in the days when you used to proclaim it wasn't Obama's bill because it wasn't completed yet, to a committee, to find an example of bi-partisanship is telling on its face.
    To tuckers original point of "really bipartisan", it takes two willing partners.
    In the case of the Senate, I'd disagree. It takes more than Olympia Snowe and Max "pass me the bottle" Baucus.
    The offer went out, the answer was to obstruct to embarrass the dems. In spite of that, compromises (because of GOP criticisms) the dems made also reflected bi-partisanship. It was only a matter of time before the GOP soundbite became a self fulfilling prophesy, which I personally think took too long and deflated where real change could take effect.
    Thanks for the history summary. You left out the part about the bill[s] being in trouble because the Democrats can't find consensus among themselves.
    Go sing your song to someone who only reads one sided blogs for the news so that it's all interpreted for them. I'm sure they'll buy it.
    Someone seems to be getting more and more snitty around here. Or is this yet another in the otoc's better than the rest of you repertoire?

    More than 60% of voters agree that the bill should be sheet-canned. That's a bi-partisan opinion, BTW. Its not just ebil Republicans.
    Last edited by Dutchcedar; 12-31-2009 at 09:23 AM.

  9. #1569
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchcedar View Post
    And the members of that committee that supported that bill at the time were whom, otoc? Your painting of this committee as being fully behind the bill in a true bi-partisan manner is patently false if my memory serves correctly. The Democrats control the committee by majority vote.
    There is no painting other than your memory. The full committee produced what they did. You are blending other times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchcedar View Post
    Be that as it may, that you have to reach back to August, back in the days when you used to proclaim it wasn't Obama's bill because it wasn't completed yet, to a committee, to find an example of bi-partisanship is telling on its face.
    Come on now. We both know the political shift that occurred. The GOP stopped acting like individuals and went with a strategic decision to block so as to make points with the anti-government voting block. Regardless, their "concerns" have been incorporated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchcedar View Post
    In the case of the Senate, I'd disagree. It takes more than Olympia Snowe and Max Baucus. Thanks for the history summary. You left out the part about the bill[s] being in trouble because the Democrats can't find consensus among themselves.
    You are still hooked on only Snowe? Geez. I didn't leave out anything. I went through the process. Once again, you stop short with one word, to make an absolute of your position.

    The Dems reacted with compromises based on their's and GOP criticisms. That caused a rift in their party but so far, the compromise bills are going through. I wrote that in. Sorry I didn't spell it out for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchcedar View Post
    Someone seems to be getting more and more snitty around here. Or is this yet another in the otoc's better than the rest of you repertoire?
    Yeah, so sorry to answer back in the same tone you post. My apologies. In fact, my apologies in advance so get used to it. I tried the civil approach and if you think me writing for you to "sing your song" that you first sang to me is snitty, then so am I but what are you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchcedar View Post
    More than 60% of voters agree that the bill should be sheet-canned. That's a bi-partisan opinion, BTW. Its not just ebil Republicans.
    That's right. And a large majority is upset because the public option isn't in there, prescription drugs allowed to be purchased outside the country, the misconception that Medicare coverage will be reduced, as well as abortion being legislated to be outlawed. A majority also expects a bill to be passed. How about that.

    Liberals are upset that the full banana isn't happening while conservatives are upset that anything is being done at all. Big deal. That's called compromise and was the effect of bi-partisan work be it direct, or indirect.

  10. #1570
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by otoc View Post
    That's right. And a large majority is upset because the public option isn't in there, prescription drugs allowed to be purchased outside the country, the misconception that Medicare coverage will be reduced, as well as abortion being legislated to be outlawed. A majority also expects a bill to be passed. How about that.
    I agree that a majority expect to get screwed by this Congress and this President who they don't agree with by a majority.

  11. #1571
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    How many bribes and payoffs did it take before the One and Harry were finally able to get the 60 votes needed? Hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars and those are just the ones we currently know about.

    Donít you just love covert closed door legislation?

    The problem isnít the republicans itís their own damned party.

    Take this piece-o-crap legislation run it through the shredder and slop the hogs with it.

  12. #1572
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by tucker View Post
    Donít you just love covert closed door legislation?
    you know, that link I gave you before also works for the entire Congress...
    http://www.c-span.org/Topics/Health-...Town-Hall.aspx

    Yeah, covert...

  13. #1573
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by otoc View Post
    you know, that link I gave you before also works for the entire Congress...
    http://www.c-span.org/Topics/Health-...Town-Hall.aspx

    Yeah, covert...

    That’s what I said and I stand by it. Hell all but a few democrats had no idea what was really happening behind closed doors in Harry’s office.

    All the democratic senators I saw interviewed were using the same talking points.
    Last edited by tucker; 12-31-2009 at 01:02 PM.

  14. #1574
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    The healthcare debate, 1980 style:




  15. #1575
    Joined
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    California
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    24,156

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by otoc View Post
    you know, that link I gave you before also works for the entire Congress...
    http://www.c-span.org/Topics/Health-...Town-Hall.aspx

    Yeah, covert...


    One of your fav links..

    Negotiate health care reform in public sessions televised on C-SPAN



    To achieve health care reform, "I'm going to have all the negotiations around a big table. We'll have doctors and nurses and hospital administrators. Insurance companies, drug companies -- they'll get a seat at the table, they just won't be able to buy every chair. But what we will do is, we'll have the negotiations televised on C-SPAN, so that people can see who is making arguments on behalf of their constituents, and who are making arguments on behalf of the drug companies or the insurance companies. And so, that approach, I think is what is going to allow people to stay involved in this process."

    Sources: Town hall meeting on Aug. 21, 2008, in Chester, Va.

    Subjects: Health Care, Transparency


    Updates:
    Obama said he'd televise health reform negotiations on C-SPAN

    Updated: Friday, July 10th, 2009 | By Angie Drobnic Holan

    During the presidential campaign, Barack Obama said several times that he intended to negotiate health care reform publicly. In fact, he said, he'd televise the negotiations on C-SPAN, with all the parties sitting at a big table. That way, Americans would be more engaged in the process and insist on real change.

    "That's what I will do in bringing all parties together, not negotiating behind closed doors, but bringing all parties together, and broadcasting those negotiations on C-SPAN so that the American people can see what the choices are, because part of what we have to do is enlist the American people in this process," Obama said at a debate in Los Angeles on Jan. 31, 2008.

    The special interests and lobbyists, he said, "will resist anything that we try to do. ... And the antidote to that is making sure that the American people understand what is at stake."

    We missed this promise when we first made our database, but thanks to thorough reporting on it from the McClatchy News Service , we're adding it now. (Read their story .)

    The McClatchy report showed that, so far, substantial negotiations on health reform have been held behind closed doors. These include two agreements with the drug industry and hospitals to reduce costs over the next 10 years. In Congress, some of the committee bill writing sessions have been open, but negotiations are also taking place behind closed doors. That's routine in Congress. Much of the difficult negotiations take place in private sessions, before bills come to committee or the House or Senate floor.

    White House spokesman Robert Gibbs told the McClatchy reporters that Obama "has demonstrated more transparency than any president," but that "I don't think the president intimated that every decision putting together a health care bill would be on public TV."

    Maybe not every decision, but he made it clear that he wanted negotiations, especially with those representing the for-profit health care industry, to take place in the open. We were able to find four additional instances where he made the same promise during public appearances in 2007 and 2008. And in one case, he said he'd do it in his first 100 days.

    "People say, 'Well, you have this great health care plan, but how are you going to pass it? You know, it failed in '93,'" Obama said on Aug. 21, 2008, at a town hall in Chester, Va. "And what I've said is, I'm going to have all the negotiations around a big table. We'll have doctors and nurses and hospital administrators. Insurance companies, drug companies ó they'll get a seat at the table, they just won't be able to buy every chair. But what we will do is, we'll have the negotiations televised on C-SPAN, so that people can see who is making arguments on behalf of their constituents, and who are making arguments on behalf of the drug companies or the insurance companies. And so, that approach, I think is what is going to allow people to stay involved in this process."

    Part of the issue here is that Obama has announced broad outlines for a health care bill ó primarily lower costs and expanded access ó but he has left the details of legislation to Congress. That gives Congress a lot of the power to control the debate, as then-candidate Hillary Clinton warned Obama during the Los Angeles debate. "Certainly, it is important that the president come up with the plan, but we'll have to persuade Congress to put all of those deliberations on C-SPAN. Now, I think we might be able to do that, but that's a little heavier lift than what the president is going to propose," she said at the time.

    So no, there haven't been any round-table negotiations on C-SPAN. And there are plenty of questions still to be answered. To our mind, one of the most important questions will be the details behind what's known as the public option, which Obama has said he supports. It could be like Medicare for everyone, or it could be just another nonprofit health insurance plan, or anywhere in between. The details here matter a great deal, but we don't know which type of public option is likely to emerge from Congress or what specific stipulations Obama might have for the public option.

    Obama promised ó repeatedly ó an end to closed-door negotiations and complete openness for the health care talks. But he hasn't delivered. Instead of open talks of C-SPAN, we've gotten more of the same ó talks behind closed doors at the White House and Congress. We might revisit this promise if there's a dramatic change, but we see nothing to indicate anything has changed. We rate this Promise Broken.

    Sources:


    McClatchy Newspapers, Obama campaign vow of public debate on health care fading , July 9, 2009

    New York Times, Health deals could harbor hidden costs , July 7, 2009

    CNN.com, Democratic presidential debate , Jan. 31, 2008

    CQ Transcriptions, Town hall with Barack Obama in Lancaster, Va., Aug. 21, 2008, accessed via Nexis

    Federal News Service, Town hall with Barack Obama in Albuquerque, N.M., Aug. 18, 2008, accessed via Nexis

    CQ Transcriptions, Town hall with Barack Obama in Lancaster, Pa., March 31, 2008, accessed via Nexis

    CQ Transcriptions, Town hall with Barack Obama and Google employees in Mountain View, Calif., Nov. 14, 2007, accessed via Nexis
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


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