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  1. #196
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    West Richland, WA
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    6,397

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Pehu View Post
    Health care is VERY different from 'private industry'. I would say it is insane to compare health care with private industry.
    I'm in health care and it is very much a competitive private industry. The only places where it is not really "private" is where it is so highly regulated by the government that the hospitals can only do things one certain way. Otherwise, doctors are competing for the same patients and hospitals are also. The only place there is no competition is for the government paid patients because no one makes any money on those so no one wants them.
    Brian

  2. #197
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Good commentary:
    http://bismarcktribune.com/articles/...ers/188899.txt
    President Barack Obama proposes a multibillion- dollar tax increase to provide general health care by the federal government to all.

    What references does the federal government have for providing health care? Two: The Veterans Administration health care system and the Indian Health Service, which have been operating for decades.

    Within the week, veterans organizations and congressmen have said the veterans health care system is in shambles. Within the last year, we read of incorrect radiation doses for up to 100 vets being treated for prostate cancer; thousands were exposed to HIV and hepatitis because certain VA hospitals failed to sanitize colonoscopy equipment before reusing it; and wounded Middle East war veterans were provided deficient care in substandard facilities. The Indian Health Service is routinely criticized for inadequate care of Native Americans. Sen. Byron Dorgan, chairman of the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs, has often pointed out the deficient care Indians receive from the government health service.

    So what could we hope to expect from a federal government run health care system for all, if two relatively small segments of society can't get adequate care through a long-established federal care systems? The federal government obviously hasn't fulfilled its responsibilities for the two health care service systems it now operates

    I have a suggestion: Let's give the federal government 10 years to bring the veterans and Indian health services up to par with the private sector, then we might consider whether to give it additional responsibilities for providing health care.
    Brian

  3. #198
    Joined
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    10,841

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by bk94si View Post
    The only place there is no competition is for the government paid patients because no one makes any money on those so no one wants them.
    Therein lies a great problem regarding healthcare and the premise that healthcare as a profit center ala manufacturer of widgits with the history of over the inflation rate of rising costs (killing many a state and local budget btw). To say any place of treatment can turn someone away in need is pretty sad. My opinion and a reason why I am for an enema towards change. The private system has had ample opportunity to address the issues internally and has not due to the past Congress deciding not to act and as such there has been no pressure towards change. It's another Wall Street. Time has run out and if it means government will either compete or take over, so be it ---warts and all.

  4. #199
    Joined
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    In a house
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    5,755

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    I have a suggestion: Let's give the federal government 10 years to bring the veterans and Indian health services up to par with the private sector, then we might consider whether to give it additional responsibilities for providing health care.
    That makes sense !

  5. #200
    Joined
    Feb 2007
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    41
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    551

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by otoc View Post
    Therein lies a great problem regarding healthcare and the premise that healthcare as a profit center ala manufacturer of widgits with the history of over the inflation rate of rising costs (killing many a state and local budget btw). To say any place of treatment can turn someone away in need is pretty sad. My opinion and a reason why I am for an enema towards change. The private system has had ample opportunity to address the issues internally and has not due to the past Congress deciding not to act and as such there has been no pressure towards change. It's another Wall Street. Time has run out and if it means government will either compete or take over, so be it ---warts and all.
    let me ask you this... you go to school all that time and do your time to get your med license... your saying you wouldnt want to make money?


  6. #201
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by watertown28 View Post
    let me ask you this... you go to school all that time and do your time to get your med license... your saying you wouldnt want to make money?
    No kidding. All the best and brightest will then not become doctors, only the stupid ones. The smart ones who want to make money will become lawyers instead. I'd rather be giving my money to a rich competent doctor than a poor incompetent quack.
    Brian

  7. #202
    Joined
    Apr 2002
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    10,841

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by watertown28 View Post
    let me ask you this... you go to school all that time and do your time to get your med license... your saying you wouldnt want to make money?
    Please don't put words in my mouth for I never said or implied that.

    To say that the system is broken and needs fixing simply states that the system is broken and needs fixing, not that you should be able to make a living or not. But how much of that living is taken up by the profits sucked up by the system by the institutions and not the actual medical providers?

    Your argument simply is not valid to me. Sorry. If you wish to make a great living without concern regarding personal impact to treatment, then there are many fields where capitalism is a valid philosophy for economics.

  8. #203
    Joined
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    10,841

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by bk94si View Post
    No kidding. All the best and brightest will then not become doctors, only the stupid ones. The smart ones who want to make money will become lawyers instead. I'd rather be giving my money to a rich competent doctor than a poor incompetent quack.
    lol. On the other hand, perhaps those who actually care about treating people as opposed to simply bright people concerned with making as much money might once again be attracted to the field? I think you are making a simplistic representation of the various sides.

    It's one thing looking for and post where the government is underfunding the VA and as such has made mistakes. It's another thing to post where these brightest you mention have made grievous errors towards their patents in a hope that a balance of the actual situation can be obtained.

    The system is broken. We pay more per capita for less than other nations. Our life expectancy is lower than other nations. Mistakes happen both in private and government arenas under the current system. The professional sectors, both insurance and medical provers have had plenty of time to address the problems. Now, not 10 years from now is the time to address it. I'm sure there won't be perfection with the first version, but at least inertia against change seems to be the target.

  9. #204
    Joined
    Nov 2002
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    In bed with one of my avatar AMD girls :D
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    8,876

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    A common misconception I see is that you guys think that if medicine is socialized that the doctors wont make money?

    1)A doctor usually becomes a doctor to help people not just for money
    2)They make a good salary anyways in a socialized state.
    Go to europe and ask a doctor if they are poor

  10. #205
    Joined
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Corruptfornia
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    3,785

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    So the answer is to FORCE people to carry coverage like auto
    insurance or be fined ? BS !

    However that's part of the legislation just brought forth. Sieg Heil over
    personel freedom to choose one's own path..>

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090703/...5hdGViaWxsZmk-
    excerpt
    WASHINGTON – Americans who refuse to buy affordable medical coverage could be hit with fines of more than $1,000 under a health care overhaul bill unveiled Thursday by key Senate Democrats looking to fulfill President Barack Obama's top domestic priority.

    The Congressional Budget Office estimated the fines will raise around $36 billion over 10 years. Senate aides said the penalties would be modeled on the approach taken by Massachusetts, which now imposes a fine of about $1,000 a year on individuals who refuse to get coverage. Under the federal legislation, families would pay higher penalties than individuals.

    In a revamped health care system envisioned by lawmakers, people would be required to carry health insurance just like motorists must get auto coverage now. The government would provide subsidies for the poor and many middle-class families, but those who still refuse to sign up would face penalties.

    Called "shared responsibility payments," the fines would be set at least at half the cost of basic medical coverage, according to the legislation. The goal is to nudge people to sign up for coverage when they are healthy, not wait until they get sick.

    In 2008, employer-provided coverage averaged $12,680 a year for a family plan, and $4,704 for individual coverage, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation's annual survey. Senate aides, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly, said the cost of the federal plan would be lower but declined to provide specifics.

    The legislation would exempt certain hardship cases from fines. The fines would be collected through the income tax system.

    The new proposals were released as Congress neared the end of a weeklong July 4 break, with lawmakers expected to quickly take up health care legislation when they return to Washington. With deepening divisions along partisan and ideological lines, the complex legislation faces an uncertain future.

    Obama wants a bill this year that would provide coverage to the nearly 50 million Americans who lack it and reduce medical costs.

    In a statement, Obama welcomed the legislation, saying it "reflects many of the principles I've laid out, such as reforms that will prohibit insurance companies from refusing coverage for people with pre-existing conditions and the concept of insurance exchanges where individuals can find affordable coverage if they lose their jobs, move or get sick."
    Doesn't sound like that to me..Sounds like more money going either
    to the medical/drugs sector, or and why am I not surprised, back
    to the Gov, be it local, state, or Fed..

    With this character running the country, one better be careful about
    placing the flag out for that terrorist sanctioned 4th of July celebration,
    from now on.

  11. #206
    Joined
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    Location
    Corruptfornia
    Posts
    3,785

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    One other thing..This isn't just about "health care" for natural born
    or legal citizens, no way ! Don't believe so ? Look what one legislator
    had to say about it according to a caller who was at a metting..

    http://directorblue.blogspot.com/200...an-people.html
    I want to tell you that last week I attended a conference on health care reform sponsored by La Raza. And I will tell you that what they had to say, Mark, is scarier than anything that's been said so far on the health care plan.

    The kind of comments that were made and the notes that I took... they started the conference out by saying "America does not need health care reform, but Latino immigrants need health care reform."

    And someone from Menendez' office [Ed.: Sen. Robert Menendez, D-NJ] promised that he would make sure that "the useless barriers of citizenship would not be in this bill" and that he would make sure that they would use keywords like "streamline"...

    It was La Raza, the Childrens Defense Fund and Senator Menendez from New Jersey, a representative from his office...

    ...Yes [they said they would get free health care for illegal aliens], these are my notes, Mark. They actually got up and said "Latino children need health care more than whites". And then they would say things like "you must go out into your communities, use words like 'streamline', use phrases like 'all workers' and 'all families'," because they said -- and I quote -- "If the American people find out that this bill is about giving health care to non-citizens, they will rise up against it."

    ...One of the quotes they said was, "We want to make sure we take care of barriers like verification, but we can streamline programs to the more affluent" and, quote, "Useless treatments for the elderly can be gone because we don't need to spend money for people who are going to die anyway."

    That's a direct quote from that meeting. They also said, "We are very concerned there will be an effort to include" the illegal immigrants in this argument, so "we must make sure that we focus this" to the American people that it's looking like we want "health care for everyone".

    And they also said that 75% of the children who will be picked up in this will be non-citizens and that 44% of the uninsured are non-citizens and they can't possibly allow the American people to know this." [Ed: Oops!]

    Menendez' office said that he's going to make sure that "a family of four that makes $66,000 a year or less will pay nothing at all for the new health care. And he was the one who said he was going to get rid of specifics like "citizenship status" and focus on, quote, "equity for all workers".

    And he said he's going to make sure that the Latino immigrants are the focus of the health care reform.

    And La Raza said if they get this, they don't even care about amnesty, because they've fixed it so that one family member can apply for all extended family members. And... Mark, if you think we have a problem with illegal immigration now, wait 'til you see the borders when this thing gets passed.
    Be this true or not, we out here in Ca see it every day. Sure many
    have insurance, I guess, but how many don't and flood the local
    emer ward ? Well so many people and not just Hispanics have, that
    DON'T have insurance, that many hospitals have gone belly up
    due to costs. But whose fault is that ? Not mine. I pay my way,
    but why should I have to pay for another person/persons I don't
    even know if here illegally ?

    Why should any of us..?
    Last edited by no2guncntrl; 07-03-2009 at 12:44 AM.

  12. #207
    Joined
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Kern River Valley, CA
    Age
    71
    Posts
    21,679

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by otoc View Post
    Therein lies a great problem regarding healthcare and the premise that healthcare as a profit center ala manufacturer of widgits with the history of over the inflation rate of rising costs (killing many a state and local budget btw). To say any place of treatment can turn someone away in need is pretty sad. My opinion and a reason why I am for an enema towards change. The private system has had ample opportunity to address the issues internally and has not due to the past Congress deciding not to act and as such there has been no pressure towards change. It's another Wall Street. Time has run out and if it means government will either compete or take over, so be it ---warts and all.

    You know that sounds like an awfully socialistic statement to me. Especially coming from a middle of the roader like you.

    Some might argue the government is broken and they have no business taking anything in the private sector over. I mean our government certainly doesn’t have a very impressive record in running anything. As a matter of fact I can’t think of a damn thing the government runs efficiently and at projected cost. I can’t think of anything the government runs that isn’t a beaurocratic nightmare. Well, let me think a second:

    Social Security? Nope
    Medicare? Nope
    Medicaid? Nope
    VA? Nope

    There are a hundred other government agencies and not a single one is worth the money the taxpayers spend on them.

  13. #208
    Joined
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Kern River Valley, CA
    Age
    71
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    21,679

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Screw big government, screw big spending polticans and screw big government's power grab.

  14. #209
    Joined
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    10,841

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by no2guncntrl View Post
    So the answer is to FORCE people to carry coverage like auto
    insurance or be fined ? BS !

    However that's part of the legislation just brought forth. Sieg Heil over
    personel freedom to choose one's own path..>

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090703/...5hdGViaWxsZmk-
    excerpt

    Doesn't sound like that to me..Sounds like more money going either
    to the medical/drugs sector, or and why am I not surprised, back
    to the Gov, be it local, state, or Fed..

    With this character running the country, one better be careful about
    placing the flag out for that terrorist sanctioned 4th of July celebration,
    from now on.
    lol, so the senate is duplicating the Romney plan from Massachusetts where everyone must have insurance. Your point is what, besides the offsets for those who can't afford to buy in or the fact that there are millions who could pay the $12-16K a year but don't when they can subsidize their sickness by going to emergency wards and having the rest of us subsidize their payment plans due to the actual cost of their treatments?

    Remember those statistics I see thrown around here? Those who "decide" they won't have healthplans even if they can afford it? Who pays the doctor bills for when they get sick? Them? Of course not. We do in higher rates.

    edit: let's add in a new popular issue with the GOP, which is illegals. under this plan they need to buy in and make themselves known. A fact proven by the Romney plan is now they are too afriad of going to the emergency rooms which also makes you and me subsidize their treatments.
    Last edited by otoc; 07-03-2009 at 02:36 AM.

  15. #210
    Joined
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    10,841

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by tucker View Post
    You know that sounds like an awfully socialistic statement to me. Especially coming from a middle of the roader like you.

    Some might argue the government is broken and they have no business taking anything in the private sector over. I mean our government certainly doesn’t have a very impressive record in running anything. As a matter of fact I can’t think of a damn thing the government runs efficiently and at projected cost. I can’t think of anything the government runs that isn’t a beaurocratic nightmare. Well, let me think a second:

    Social Security? Nope
    Medicare? Nope
    Medicaid? Nope
    VA? Nope

    There are a hundred other government agencies and not a single one is worth the money the taxpayers spend on them.
    Fire
    Police
    Navy
    Marines
    Air Force
    Army
    National Guard
    Coast Guard
    Post office
    Rail
    Social Security
    IRS
    Penal
    Judicial

    Your point is what, that we don't have basic services that actually work and could not be labeled 'socialism'? Please. Save me the doom and gloom regarding our government as well as making health seem like it is such a shift in politics because Obama happens to be driving this issue.

    edit: Social Security works and is well maintained. What kills it is Congress taking the over payments in as revenue for the national budget instead of investing it for future generations.

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