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  1. #61
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by tucker View Post
    I think most people believe our healthcare system is in dire straits the big problem is how to fix it. Obviously it’s not an easy problem to solve. I think Obama would be very wise to listen to all suggestions and methods before making any decisions. What he is proposing now looks like a sure loser to me. Like the stimulus he’s trying to rush the process making it nearly impossible to come up with the best solutions. This guy has way too much on his plate and it’s going to end up with everything he’s done turning into a shitsandwich.
    There I might have to agree. If government sponsored is also going to mean government controlled, then there will be problems- especially in cost. If they get it started and let it fly on a privatized basis- like ATT & the Postal Service, then it will likely pwn BOTH government and profit-based solutions. And, unlike AT&T and the USPS, this may be the only natural monopoly that technology can make instead of break.

    From a capitalist point of view- medical staffs can still make fortunes with elective care and competition for building, supplies and equipment contracts could be great opportunities.

    I'm not a pure capitalist or socialist. I'm a dam engineer. Use whatever works best.
    Last edited by AeroSim; 06-23-2009 at 02:17 PM.
    "We say in our platform that we believe that the right to coin money and issue money is a function of government....

    Those who are opposed to this proposition tell us that the issue of paper money is a function of the bank and that the government ought to go out of the banking business. I stand with Jefferson rather than with them, and tell them, as he did, that the issue of money is a function of the government and that the banks should go out of the governing business."

    William Jennings Bryan.

  2. #62
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter View Post
    "Basic human rights" includes health care for all at my expense?
    mememememememememememe

    Anyways,basic human rights such as everyone is entitled to healthcare is what im talking about.

  3. #63
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by bk94si View Post
    Maybe you should pick up an economics book.
    I thought medicine was about helping people,not money.....
    Ohh I forgot,medicine is still privatized here.
    Hopefully that will change soon.


    Quote Originally Posted by bk94si View Post

    The only way to make healthcare EQUAL for everyone is to make it HORRIBLE for everyone. Your line of reasoning has no end. Is it fair that we have better healthcare in the USA than in sub-saharan Africa? Do we have to pay for their healthcare also? Isn't it a basic right? What about New Guinea? Iran?
    Horrible?What makes you think it would be horrible?
    Why are you comparing it to other countrys?Especially 3rd world countrys who get their medicine from foreign aid? Why dont you compare it to european countrys who most have socialized medicine and it works quite well over there.I can tell you from experience and also my cousin is a doctor over there.

  4. #64
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by AeroSim View Post
    I'm not a pure capitalist or socialist. I'm a dam engineer. Use whatever works best.


    I agree...

  5. #65
    Joined
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Poci View Post
    mememememememememememe

    Anyways,basic human rights such as everyone is entitled to healthcare is what im talking about.
    One of the first rules of life you learn is that

    1. It isn't fair.
    2. There are no entitlements.

    After having been in too much jungle and 3rd-world sh*tholes, you learn pretty quick that living in the USA is a God-given privilege and not an entitlement.

    The fight is not to lose that privilege to the careless, criminal and irresponsible.
    "We say in our platform that we believe that the right to coin money and issue money is a function of government....

    Those who are opposed to this proposition tell us that the issue of paper money is a function of the bank and that the government ought to go out of the banking business. I stand with Jefferson rather than with them, and tell them, as he did, that the issue of money is a function of the government and that the banks should go out of the governing business."

    William Jennings Bryan.

  6. #66
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Poci View Post
    mememememememememememe

    Anyways,basic human rights such as everyone is entitled to healthcare is what im talking about.


    Do you have a full list of all of the basic human rights?

    That would sure clear up a lot of confusion for me.

  7. #67
    Joined
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Food for thought...

    Since 1970 -- even without the prescription drug benefit -- Medicare's costs have risen 34% more, per patient, than the combined costs of all health care in America apart from Medicare and Medicaid, the vast majority of which is purchased through the private sector.

    Since 1970, the per-patient costs of all health care apart from Medicare and Medicaid have risen from $364 to $7,119, while Medicare's per-patient costs have risen from $368 to $9,634. Medicare's costs have risen $2,511 more per patient.

    http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnal...aspx?id=480067

    What's laughable is that there is no plan, but a lot of lofty promises based on the premise that the government can reduce costs. With no evidence whatsoever that the US government can lower costs on anything, how is it that there are still people around who parrot the idea that they can?

  8. #68
    Joined
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by bk94si View Post

    The only way to make healthcare EQUAL for everyone is to make it HORRIBLE for everyone. Your line of reasoning has no end.
    With respect, I feel your reasoning's end is not accurate.

    http://www.networklobby.org/issues/2...nChart5-09.pdf

    There's a difference between equal for all and equal for those who need it.

    And based on the charts in that link, it looks like we pay for the current system. Look at those per capita numbers with a sense of economics.

  9. #69
    Joined
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    West Richland, WA
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Poci View Post
    I thought medicine was about helping people,not money.....
    Ohh I forgot,medicine is still privatized here.
    Hopefully that will change soon.




    Horrible?What makes you think it would be horrible?
    Why are you comparing it to other countrys?Especially 3rd world countrys who get their medicine from foreign aid? Why dont you compare it to european countrys who most have socialized medicine and it works quite well over there.I can tell you from experience and also my cousin is a doctor over there.

    So, it is only a "basic" human right if you happen to live in the USA, eh?

    As for countries where socialized medicine is "working" - their economies are pretty much bankrupt also.
    Brian

  10. #70
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by AeroSim View Post
    One of the first rules of life you learn is that

    1. It isn't fair.
    2. There are no entitlements.

    After having been in too much jungle and 3rd-world sh*tholes, you learn pretty quick that living in the USA is a God-given privilege and not an entitlement.

    The fight is not to lose that privilege to the careless, criminal and irresponsible.
    Your rhehthoric is futile.

    Quote Originally Posted by tucker View Post
    Do you have a full list of all of the basic human rights?

    That would sure clear up a lot of confusion for me.
    I dunno maybe amnesty internationals web page might show them?

    Quote Originally Posted by bk94si View Post
    So, it is only a "basic" human right if you happen to live in the USA, eh?
    Umm and I said this where?
    Quote Originally Posted by bk94si View Post
    As for countries where socialized medicine is "working" - their economies are pretty much bankrupt also.
    So your actually gonna sit there and blame europes bad economies on the fact that they have socialized medicine? Are you serial

  11. #71
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Poci View Post
    I dunno maybe amnesty internationals web page might show them?


    Oh, I thought you were the expert...


    Obviously just more me, me and what Iím entitled to.

  12. #72
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by otoc View Post
    With respect, I feel your reasoning's end is not accurate.

    http://www.networklobby.org/issues/2...nChart5-09.pdf

    There's a difference between equal for all and equal for those who need it.

    And based on the charts in that link, it looks like we pay for the current system. Look at those per capita numbers with a sense of economics.
    You can't look at simple per capita numbers that way without also looking at how many doctors leave those countries to practice here, the general health of the population, obesity rates, whether some treatments are available, whether more expensive tests and treatments are rationed, etc.

    My point is not that the government couldn't make it cheaper but they can't make it cheaper AND better.
    Brian

  13. #73
    Joined
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by otoc View Post
    I believe the current situation is exactly that, and if you meant 'keep' as 'make 'em' and not 'don't allow them to change from state regulation', then I suppose we are seeing first hand how state regulation works.

    http://www.naic.org/documents/consum..._reg_brief.pdf


    I see this as an argument for basic constitutional rights for equal treatment. I've seen firsthand how each state treats people differently. I firmly believe this should be a federal issue.
    We are a collection of individual states united under a government. Not a government with sections of property. If we are going to have any kind of government backed insurance. It should be at a state level. And voted on by the state representatives. The federal government is there to ensure that your constitutional rights are not violated. It by its self should not hold any power. It should not be able to force individual states to comply with things outside of the constitution. If one state sets up a state run insurance program. Some people will leave because of taxes some will come because of the insurance. But everyone will have a choice.


    And what i meant with the previous post. Is do not allow individual insurance companies to service more then one state.

  14. #74
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by tucker View Post
    Oh, I thought you were the expert...


    Obviously just more me, me and what Iím entitled to.
    mememememe my money for me screw everyone else I shouldnt pay for their health care cause I can afford a hundred thousand dollar hospital bill

  15. #75
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by bk94si View Post
    You can't look at simple per capita numbers that way without also looking at how many doctors leave those countries to practice here, the general health of the population, obesity rates, whether some treatments are available, whether more expensive tests and treatments are rationed, etc.

    My point is not that the government couldn't make it cheaper but they can't make it cheaper AND better.
    Are you proud that we rank (quality in healthcare) far behind in the world? I think our rank is 32, pretty bad for the "greatist" country in the world.
    Fox News watchers are less informed - The Proof

    I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government in a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.
    - Thomas Jefferson

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