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  1. #961
    Joined
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    California
    Posts
    26,289

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    ^^^ Add to that the fact nearly every prediction from the administration (even those not directly related to health care) has been proven wrong. Everything from the effect of the "stimulus" on unemployment. To the amount of the deficit which the CBO calculated nearly dead nuts on that "O's" economic team missed by $2 TRILLION DOLLARS! News which was conveniently announced late last Friday just prior to the "O" skipping off to Martha's Vineyard on vacation.

    Then move on to his rhetoric on health care which despite having been refuted by the CBO on nearly a point by point basis he continues to claim as fact. Not to mention his own self contradictory statements which are not even separated by differing speeches:

    Mark Steyn: Stimulus hits a pothole

    Why be scared of a government health program? After all, says the president, “Medicare is a government program that works really well,” and if “we’re able to get something right like Medicare,” we should have more “confidence” about being able to do it for everyone.

    On the other hand, says the president, Medicare is “unsustainable” and “running out of money.”
    By the way, unlike your run-of-the-mill politician’s contradictory statements, these weren’t made a year or even a week apart, but during the same presidential speech in Portsmouth, N.H.
    The issue is people don't want the gubberment taking over health care. Reform.. sure. But reform is not what's being offered and the masses know it despite The Won's best doublespeak. Obama lost trust. He never had it from repugs, he's lost the Independents that put him in office and now members of his own party are sick of him seemingly still trying to appear bi-partisan though his actions say his rhetoric in that respect is a farce also.

    For such a supposedly smart guy he simply cannot seem to keep from stepping on his own d*ck with every move. His personal popularity has finally come down to earth and is on par to meet up with the awful ratings of the legislation he is proposing in a hurry:



    remember when O was claiming he would save hundreds of billions from medicare and medicade? My question still stands.. why not do that first? The answer is more obvious today as it was the first time around.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  2. #962
    Joined
    Aug 2003
    Location
    West Richland, WA
    Posts
    6,397

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by tucker View Post
    My fear is not fear it is concern. Again you assume this pamphlet will only be used during healthy periods. I don’t fear death what I fear is a government that encourages death instead of instilling hope...

    ...My take is different some of the scenarios that make life worth living are ridiculous. Like living life in a wheel chair makes life not worth living? Are you a financial burden on your family? Not being able to shake the blues? The questions all led to a predetermined conclusion.
    That is exactly the part that I object to. Having a living will is a good thing. Being made to feel guilty and depressed is a bad thing.
    Brian

  3. #963
    Joined
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    10,845

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by AeroSim View Post
    lol. More listening, less arguing.
    I'd agree with that. I would not agree that not agreeing with a position is arguing. I guess snide comments devoid of representative fact outside of an opinion might be construed as arguing. But I watched myself closely in my comments and responses in spite of what my first response might be.

    Perhaps I misunderstood the basis of your comment that jumped off of an exchange regarding living wills with a statement I didn't know what I was talking about. Based on what I'm reading below, I'm feeling I did.

    Quote Originally Posted by AeroSim View Post
    The healthcare plan is suffering from one glaring problem:

    The government can't prove it can manage spending as it is. How in the h*ll are we going to trust it to manage healthcare? Especially to me since it seems to be reinventing health insurance?
    I purposely placed 3 articles designed to create discussion on the general theme of healthcare reform.

    One I have great agreement on stated the impact on the GDP and how the discussion is getting off track in not dealing with cost.

    The second criticized Obama for letting Congress write the bill, and even though the Whitehouse stated why they did it that way, I'm in agreement that it makes for the average guy like me to have trouble understanding what version is being discussed and what is being proposed.

    The third dealt with the political process. The GOP and Democrats standing ground, the back and forth on the issue of a public health alternative, and the GOP wanting to start over from scratch now as if they weren't asked to come to the table before. Bull. Regardless, the thousand page house bill will be rewritten and we will have more bedtime reading coming up soon.


    Quote Originally Posted by AeroSim View Post
    I'm sorry, but this is almost getting to be a first-things-first type of thing and part of why I think it is something that is better off discussed in a 1999 economy than a 2009 one. Despite all the hot air to the contrary, they aren't out of this one yet and haven't proved to me that they are competent enough to manage a piggy bank let alone the Federal Reserve and healthcare.
    I'm of the opinion that what makes it through will deal with the issues and that if we don't the impact will affect the economy by the rising costs.

    Quote Originally Posted by AeroSim View Post
    This is going to be and remain a heated issue until they can prove that what they have done has worked to make the government affordable...let alone healthcare. Right now, all they have proven is that they can create an immense amount of debt.
    Of course it is going to be heated. The unrelated issues of affordable government of how to best reverse the economy is one best defined by watching the results. And gaging judgment at that time.

    To me, however, the time for healthcare reform has always "not been the time" in the past. Be it Clinton, or Bush, and now Obama.

    The final bill must deal with reform that controls cost and will be many pages due to the complexity.

    Where I have troubles is when talking heads spread misinformation and get taken down by comedians.

    And then resign from healthcare positions because they looked like a fool and their special interests came out with their lies.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2009...nts_on_he.html
    Sarah Palin may have fanned the fire over President Obama's fictitious health care "death panels," but she didn't light the match.
    That was New York's Betsy McCaughey, the former lieutenant governor most remembered here for oddly standing throughout Gov. George Pataki's 1996 State of the State speech - then running against him after he dumped her from his ticket.
    McCaughey, 60, is back as a self-styled expert whose writings on Obama's health care plans are increasingly being cited by agitated conservatives at town hall meetings as proof - falsely, other experts and the President himself say - that he wants to "pull the plug on Grandma."
    "I believe it's an important public service," McCaughey said yesterday of her commentaries, which spin snippets of legislative language and medical-journal essays by a few Obama advisers to paint a terrifying picture.
    "Members of Congress haven't been reading this bill, and I think that's shameful," she added.
    http://mediamatters.org/research/200908210042
    Jon Stewart corrects serial misinformer McCaughey's latest end-of-life counseling falsehood

    August 21, 2009 5:06 pm ET
    After previously backtracking from a claim that Page 425 of the House health care reform bill would provide for "mandatory" end-of-life counseling, former New York Lt. Gov. Betsy McCaughey -- a serial misinformer about health care reform proposals -- falsely claimed on The Daily Show that another page of the bill -- Page 432 -- would make such counseling "mandatory" and that a provision on that page "penalize[s]" doctors who do not adhere to government standards. In fact, as host Jon Stewart noted, the language McCaughey cited does not make end-of-life counseling mandatory and does not "penalize" doctors, but rather provides incentive payments for doctors who report "data on quality measures" for end-of-life care.
    http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayRe...5081344&EDATE=
    Elizabeth McCaughey Resigns As Director of Cantel Medical

    LITTLE FALLS, N.J., Aug. 21 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- CANTEL MEDICAL CORP. (NYSE: CMN) announced that on August 20, 2009 it received a letter of resignation from Ms. Elizabeth McCaughey as a director of the Company. Ms. McCaughey, who had served as a director since 2005, stated that she was resigning to avoid any appearance of a conflict of interest during the national debate over healthcare reform.
    About Cantel Medical Corp.
    Cantel Medical Corp. (NYSE: CMN) is a leading provider of infection prevention and control products in the healthcare market. Our products include specialized medical device reprocessing systems for renal dialysis and endoscopy, dialysate concentrates and other dialysis supplies, disposable infection prevention and control products primarily for the dental industry, water purification equipment, sterilants, disinfectants and cleaners, hollow fiber membrane filtration and separation products for medical and non-medical applications, and specialty packaging for infectious and biological specimens. We also provide technical maintenance for our products and offer compliance training services for the transport of infectious and biological specimens. For more information please visit http://www.cantelmedical.com.
    Last edited by otoc; 08-24-2009 at 07:41 PM.

  4. #964
    Joined
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    10,845

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter View Post
    ^^^ Add to that the fact nearly every prediction from the administration (even those not directly related to health care) has been proven wrong. Everything from the effect of the "stimulus" on unemployment. To the amount of the deficit which the CBO calculated nearly dead nuts on that "O's" economic team missed by $2 TRILLION DOLLARS! News which was conveniently announced late last Friday just prior to the "O" skipping off to Martha's Vineyard on vacation.

    Then move on to his rhetoric on health care which despite having been refuted by the CBO on nearly a point by point basis he continues to claim as fact. Not to mention his own self contradictory statements which are not even separated by differing speeches:

    Mark Steyn: Stimulus hits a pothole
    didn't you post the same Steyn oped yesterday? No offense but I put Steyn in the same place as Rush. Actually so does Rush for he has Steyn sit in for him, lol. Wrong thread scoot? Or just no one responding?
    Last edited by otoc; 08-24-2009 at 07:38 PM.

  5. #965
    Joined
    May 2002
    Location
    Twain Harte, CA
    Posts
    20,457

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    There's not a funnier political commentator out there than Mark Steyn.

    And hands down, he's the best wordsmith out there when it comes to politics.

  6. #966
    Joined
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Crazy AZ USA
    Posts
    3,516

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by otoc View Post
    ....
    One I have great agreement on stated the impact on the GDP and how the discussion is getting off track in not dealing with cost.
    ....

    I'm of the opinion that what makes it through will deal with the issues and that if we don't the impact will affect the economy by the rising costs.
    ....

    Of course it is going to be heated. The unrelated issues of affordable government of how to best reverse the economy is one best defined by watching the results. And gaging judgment at that time.
    ...
    This doesn't make sense. How can it not be related? If I can't pay for food and housing as it is, I certainly am not going to pay for the luxury of health insurance. And what bank in their right mind is going to lend me money for health insurance in that situation?

    See, this is the devil the government is buying into. It's looking to pay for things it can't afford with money it doesn't have. And it doesn't have money FOR A REASON. Now wouldn't you want them to address that issue first?

    See, the HUGE assumption is that turning healthcare over to the government is going to somehow miraculously make it cost less.

    PROVE IT.

    What has this administration done to prove it can manage this more cost effectively? It underestimated the current crisis, releaxes standards to borrow heavily from foreign interests and "stimulates" the economy with this borrowing while giving the public more credit to borrow as well.

    What is the government doing to increase the wealth of it's citizenry so that it can afford to pay for taxes and loans? AFAI can see: Lending us more money and spending more borrowed money? Bailing out bad business with said capital? And they don't even have their mits on healthcare yet.

    If there is one thing that business is really built on more than money- it is trust.

    So explain to me why the government will do a better job than the private sector? What I'm seeing is a government that is just as corrupt and amoral in its treament of our capital as the corrupt and amoral businesses they bail out. Why? Because THIS government doesn't give a sh*t about the people and it is just a paid-off lip-service organ of the financials that put them into office.
    Last edited by AeroSim; 08-24-2009 at 08:46 PM.
    "We say in our platform that we believe that the right to coin money and issue money is a function of government....

    Those who are opposed to this proposition tell us that the issue of paper money is a function of the bank and that the government ought to go out of the banking business. I stand with Jefferson rather than with them, and tell them, as he did, that the issue of money is a function of the government and that the banks should go out of the governing business."

    William Jennings Bryan.

  7. #967
    Joined
    Jun 2004
    Location
    In a house
    Posts
    5,755

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    With all due respect you don't seem to know what an advance medical directive or living will is.
    Oh on the contrary I do know and people dont need a Government official to explain it to them.

  8. #968
    Joined
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Kern River Valley, CA
    Age
    71
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    21,687

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Part of the admission process for many hospitals asks if have or if you want to make a medical directive. Generally they even have someone to assist if you need assistance. Things like Medical Directives, Wills, Living Wills, Power of Attorney and Living Trusts aren’t exactly something new.

  9. #969
    Joined
    Mar 2002
    Location
    California
    Posts
    26,289

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by otoc View Post
    didn't you post the same Steyn oped yesterday? No offense but I put Steyn in the same place as Rush. Actually so does Rush for he has Steyn sit in for him, lol. Wrong thread scoot? Or just no one responding?
    He made points in the article relevant to both threads. Not surprising as the "stimulus", health care, economy and The Won's failure to deliver on that trio are so closely tied. I take no offense.. his points are far closer to reality IMHO than those espoused at thinkprogress or mediamatters.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  10. #970
    Joined
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Crazy AZ USA
    Posts
    3,516

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    http://link.brightcove.com/services/...id=34233731001

    I know I posted this in the other thread, but I have to admit- it was better the second time around.

    It's relevant, it's now and it's why I can't get behind this healthcare...
    "We say in our platform that we believe that the right to coin money and issue money is a function of government....

    Those who are opposed to this proposition tell us that the issue of paper money is a function of the bank and that the government ought to go out of the banking business. I stand with Jefferson rather than with them, and tell them, as he did, that the issue of money is a function of the government and that the banks should go out of the governing business."

    William Jennings Bryan.

  11. #971
    Joined
    Mar 2002
    Location
    California
    Posts
    26,289

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by AeroSim View Post
    This doesn't make sense. How can it not be related? If I can't pay for food and housing as it is, I certainly am not going to pay for the luxury of health insurance. And what bank in their right mind is going to lend me money for health insurance in that situation?

    See, this is the devil the government is buying into. It's looking to pay for things it can't afford with money it doesn't have. And it doesn't have money FOR A REASON. Now wouldn't you want them to address that issue first?

    See, the HUGE assumption is that turning healthcare over to the government is going to somehow miraculously make it cost less.

    PROVE IT.

    What has this administration done to prove it can manage this more cost effectively? It underestimated the current crisis, releaxes standards to borrow heavily from foreign interests and "stimulates" the economy with this borrowing while giving the public more credit to borrow as well.

    What is the government doing to increase the wealth of it's citizenry so that it can afford to pay for taxes and loans? AFAI can see: Lending us more money and spending more borrowed money? Bailing out bad business with said capital? And they don't even have their mits on healthcare yet.

    If there is one thing that business is really built on more than money- it is trust.

    So explain to me why the government will do a better job than the private sector? What I'm seeing is a government that is just as corrupt and amoral in its treament of our capital as the corrupt and amoral businesses they bail out. Why? Because THIS government doesn't give a sh*t about the people and it is just a paid-off lip-service organ of the financials that put them into office.
    The Obama plan in a nutshell:



    Eventually people will figure out the gubberment does not "create" wealth. He's already run out of other peoples money to spend and the examples he's using medicare, medicade and USPS (all gubberment organizations running billion$ in the red) should make any sane person run away from gubberment run health care as if it's got a bad case of the clap.

    As I've said repeatedly before. Bamma claims he can save hundreds of billions of dollars. Why not start off with that? His track record to date tells exactly why. And also provides the answers as to why he sticks with the ph33r m0ngering, demonizing anyone whom opposes his hostile takeover and rush to pass everything before any real debate even has a chance to start.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  12. #972
    Joined
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    5,171

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by AeroSim View Post
    http://link.brightcove.com/services/...id=34233731001

    I know I posted this in the other thread, but I have to admit- it was better the second time around.

    It's relevant, it's now and it's why I can't get behind this healthcare...
    that link is broke.
    Max Plank: "A new scientific truth does not
    triumph by convincing its opponents and making them
    see the light,
    but rather because its opponents eventually die"
    Arthur Shopenhauer: "Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized.
    First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is opposed. Third, it is regarded as self evident."
    Martin Niemöller:
    "When the Nazis came for the communists,
    I remained silent;I was not a communist.
    When they locked up the social democrats,I remained silent;
    I was not a social democrat.When they came for the trade unionists,I did not speak out;
    I was not a trade unionist.When they came for the Jews,
    I remained silent;I wasn't a Jew.When they came for me,
    there was no one left to speak out."

  13. #973
    Joined
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Crazy AZ USA
    Posts
    3,516

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by old82 View Post
    that link is broke.
    Couple of thoughts:

    I use 32-bit Firefox to play video. IE 64-bit browsers need help video-wise.

    Adobe Flash 10 works just fine as long as you run it on a 32-bit broswer.

    You can also try to indirectly launch it from here:

    http://moneynews.newsmax.com/streett...18/249285.html
    Last edited by AeroSim; 08-25-2009 at 01:16 AM. Reason: fixt
    "We say in our platform that we believe that the right to coin money and issue money is a function of government....

    Those who are opposed to this proposition tell us that the issue of paper money is a function of the bank and that the government ought to go out of the banking business. I stand with Jefferson rather than with them, and tell them, as he did, that the issue of money is a function of the government and that the banks should go out of the governing business."

    William Jennings Bryan.

  14. #974
    Joined
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Crazy AZ USA
    Posts
    3,516

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    The same topic with Schiff on MSNBC....

    Jesus...

    http://dailybail.com/home/peter-schi...health-ca.html
    "We say in our platform that we believe that the right to coin money and issue money is a function of government....

    Those who are opposed to this proposition tell us that the issue of paper money is a function of the bank and that the government ought to go out of the banking business. I stand with Jefferson rather than with them, and tell them, as he did, that the issue of money is a function of the government and that the banks should go out of the governing business."

    William Jennings Bryan.

  15. #975
    Joined
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Crazy AZ USA
    Posts
    3,516

    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter View Post
    The Obama plan in a nutshell:



    Eventually people will figure out the gubberment does not "create" wealth. He's already run out of other peoples money to spend and the examples he's using medicare, medicade and USPS (all gubberment organizations running billion$ in the red) should make any sane person run away from gubberment run health care as if it's got a bad case of the clap.

    As I've said repeatedly before. Bamma claims he can save hundreds of billions of dollars. Why not start off with that? His track record to date tells exactly why. And also provides the answers as to why he sticks with the ph33r m0ngering, demonizing anyone whom opposes his hostile takeover and rush to pass everything before any real debate even has a chance to start.
    Scooter, with all due respect to you and otoc, this isn't just about Obama and the Democrats- but about the Repugs too. IMO- what we have is a "Heads I Win, Tails You Lose" government sponsored by the same interests. Regardless of whether they get healthcare or not, they get it so it suits them. Not us.

    As Schiff said, the main middle-class are not the ones benefitting from the stimuluses and the bailouts, it's the rich that were responsible for this mess in the first place. You want to know who is responsible? Look at who profits the most. And we've been hammering over and over again about the immense debt. So ask yourself- who profits the most from debt?
    Last edited by AeroSim; 08-25-2009 at 11:38 AM.
    "We say in our platform that we believe that the right to coin money and issue money is a function of government....

    Those who are opposed to this proposition tell us that the issue of paper money is a function of the bank and that the government ought to go out of the banking business. I stand with Jefferson rather than with them, and tell them, as he did, that the issue of money is a function of the government and that the banks should go out of the governing business."

    William Jennings Bryan.

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