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  1. #106
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by /\/\adGamer View Post
    I am far from well off. Ive been in the position of not being insured and the quality of care I got then was still outstanding it just wasn't free tho. I worked thru the hardship and still to this day wouldnt have it any other way. People like you trying to peddle the notion we need to be more like the other failed socialist countries is comical. These other countries turn down or better yet stall out and hender more people then our system now.Talk about people who die trying to get a transplant past the age of 50 in one of those countries. try getting something life saving done while in your 70's or 80's there too. This whole "we need a free health care plan"like the socialist europee ons is a joke. Like I said we cant afford this crap its not free. It's going to end up costing us ALL more in the long run then what we have now. Watch as we get closer to this debate in washington DC the cost is going to be the deal breaker.
    UHC in other countries spend less per capita than we do, how will it cost more again?
    Fox News watchers are less informed - The Proof

    I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government in a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.
    - Thomas Jefferson

  2. #107
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by /\/\adGamer View Post
    I am far from well off. Ive been in the position of not being insured and the quality of care I got then was still outstanding it just wasn't free tho. I worked thru the hardship and still to this day wouldnt have it any other way. People like you trying to peddle the notion we need to be more like the other failed socialist countries is comical. These other countries turn down or better yet stall out and hender more people then our system now.Talk about people who die trying to get a transplant past the age of 50 in one of those countries. try getting something life saving done while in your 70's or 80's there too. This whole "we need a free health care plan"like the socialist europee ons is a joke. Like I said we cant afford this crap its not free. It's going to end up costing us ALL more in the long run then what we have now. Watch as we get closer to this debate in washington DC the cost is going to be the deal breaker.
    Ask the people in those countries if they are willing to go with our model? I'll bet they answer NO!
    Fox News watchers are less informed - The Proof

    I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government in a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.
    - Thomas Jefferson

  3. #108
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by liteman View Post
    Ask the people in those countries if they are willing to go with our model? I'll bet they answer NO!



    You keep talking about all of the numbers but you havenít shown one iota of proof. You made the statements itís up to you to prove them. Without proof your statements mean zilch and should be treated as opinion.

    Your arguments fail the basic smell testÖ

  4. #109
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by tucker View Post
    You keep talking about all of the numbers but you haven’t shown one iota of proof. You made the statements it’s up to you to prove them. Without proof your statements mean zilch and should be treated as opinion.

    Your arguments fail the basic smell test…
    Where have I stated any numbers? If you doubt that we spend more per capita on healthcare than those with UHC, it should be very easy to disprove.

    here ya go

    www.cfr.org/publication/13325/

    www.consumeraffairs.com/news03/health_costs.html

    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/27348.php


    http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/20...o-much-part-i/

    http://www.reuters.com/article/healt...54Q3RG20090527

    there's lots more.

    The United States spends more on health care per capita than other industrialized nations but does not receive more services, according to a study published on Tuesday in the July/August issue of... Health Affairs, the Los Angeles Times reports. For the study -- led by Gerard Anderson, a health policy professor at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health -- researchers analyzed the health care costs of 30 nations in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. The study found: The nations examined spend a median of $2,193 per capita on health care;


    The United States spent $5,267 per capita for prescription drugs, hospital stays and physicians visits in 2002, compared with $3,446 per capita for Switzerland, the next highest spender;


    Health care spending accounted for 14.6% of the U.S. gross domestic product in 2002, a time when only two other nations -- Switzerland and Germany -- spent more than 10% of their GDP on health care;


    The United States has 2.9 hospital beds per 1,000 residents, compared with a median of 3.7 beds per 1,000 residents among the other nations examined;


    The United States had 2.4 physicians per 1,000 residents in 2001, compared with a median of 3.1 physicians per 1,000 residents among the other nations examined in 2002;


    The United States had 7.9 nurses per 1,000 residents in the United States in 2001, compared with a median of 8.9 nurses per 1,000 residents among the other nations examined in 2002;


    The United States has 12.8 CT scanners per one million U.S. residents, compared with a median of 13.3 scanners per one million residents among the other nations examined;


    The United States appears to have more magnetic resonance imaging machines per capita than many of the other nations examined, but the machines are used only 10 hours daily in the United States, compared with a median of 18 hours daily in other nations; and


    The average medical malpractice payment, which included both settlements and judgments, was $265,103 in the United States in 2001, compared with $309,417 in Canada and $411,171 in Britain.
    Taiwan's system is commonly singled out as a model for cost-effectiveness. An article in Health Affairs examines Taiwan's National Health Insurance (or NHI) system, implemented in 1995, which provides comprehensive universal health coverage to Taiwan's roughly 23 million citizens. The authors conclude that savings from the NHI system largely offset the incremental cost of covering the previously uninsured. Taiwanese are assessed around $20 a month for full health coverage. In contrast, Americans pay roughly $500 per month, according to data in a report by McKinsey.
    Last edited by liteman; 06-23-2009 at 07:16 PM.
    Fox News watchers are less informed - The Proof

    I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government in a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.
    - Thomas Jefferson

  5. #110
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Poci View Post
    mememememe my money for me screw everyone else I shouldnt pay for their health care cause I can afford a hundred thousand dollar hospital bill

    If I pay for your insurance I wonít be able to pay for my own.

    In a case like that it is screw youÖ

  6. #111
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by liteman View Post
    Where have I stated any numbers? If you doubt that we spend more per capita on healthcare than those with UHC, it should be very easy to disprove.

    here ya go

    www.cfr.org/publication/13325/

    www.consumeraffairs.com/news03/health_costs.html

    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/27348.php


    http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/20...o-much-part-i/

    http://www.reuters.com/article/healt...54Q3RG20090527

    there's lots more.


    For the sake of argument letís assume what those links say is true.

    They all talk about per capita comparisons. I think total population is much more telling than per capita comparisons. It would seem to me the smaller the country is in population the less challenging the care problem would be.

    I think a better question would be what country with a population of 300 million or more offers better care at a lower overall cost.

  7. #112
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by tucker View Post
    For the sake of argument let’s assume what those links say is true.

    They all talk about per capita comparisons. I think total population is much more telling than per capita comparisons. It would seem to me the smaller the country is in population the less challenging the care problem would be.

    I think a better question would be what country with a population of 300 million or more offers better care at a lower overall cost.
    Like I said in an earlier post, you can always find an excuse if you look hard enough.

    Per capita is the only way you can accurately compare countries. There is no other country exactly like the U.S..

    How can it be any less challanging for a smaller country?
    Last edited by liteman; 06-23-2009 at 07:37 PM.
    Fox News watchers are less informed - The Proof

    I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government in a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.
    - Thomas Jefferson

  8. #113
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Lower cost doesn't mean zilch either if you have to sacrifice quality of care to achieve lower cost. Seems part of our cost problem now is the fact the governments dirty ass fingers are all over health care as it is. The government is forcing care providers to make up the costs in the private sector of care to make up for the short comings of the medicaid/medicare programs they are bankrupting now.

  9. #114
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by liteman View Post
    Like I said in an earlier post, you can always find an excuse if you look hard enough.

    Per capita is the only way you can accurately compare countries. There is no other country exactly like the U.S..

    How can it be any less challanging for a smaller country?



    Yep, you also do a good job of moving the goal posts…

    No two countries are alike and my opinion is total population is a much more accurate comparison.

    How can it be any less challanging for a smaller country?
    The smaller the hemorrhoid is the easier it is to treat.



    If they can come up with a fair to everybody workable plan that doesn’t involve the government competing with the private sector I’m all for it.

    Healthcare rationing isn’t desirable.

    That’s not too much to ask for.
    Last edited by tucker; 06-23-2009 at 08:04 PM.

  10. #115
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by tucker View Post
    Yep, you also do a good job of moving the goal postsÖ

    No two countries are alike and my opinion is total population is a much more accurate comparison.
    That opinion is very flawed. According to your logic, nothing can be compared unless they are they same (which is impossible).




    The smaller the hemorrhoid is the easier it is to treat.
    Not if you have equally smaller resources.



    If they can come up with a fair to everybody workable plan that doesnít involve the government competing with the private sector Iím all for it.

    Healthcare rationing isnít desirable.

    Thatís not too much to ask for.
    So the private sector still gets their "legal" monopoly. I thought competition was the best way to get the most for your money. Guess not.

    UPS, Fed Ex, etc., are still in business last time I checked and there is gov't competition there (USPS).
    Fox News watchers are less informed - The Proof

    I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government in a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.
    - Thomas Jefferson

  11. #116
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by liteman View Post
    UPS, Fed Ex, etc., are still in business last time I checked and there is gov't competition there (USPS).
    And USPS is going broke. See what happens when people have choice between public and private.
    Brian

  12. #117
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by bk94si View Post
    And USPS is going broke. See what happens when people have choice between public and private.
    But, they have a choice. No choice in the insurance market - cause there it all comes down to how much money do you have for your insurance. There is little difference in prices when you compare the benefits.
    Fox News watchers are less informed - The Proof

    I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government in a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.
    - Thomas Jefferson

  13. #118
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by liteman View Post
    Then you should have no problem answering my question. Name one industrialized country that has worse healthcare for the poor than the U.S..
    Way to respond to my request for data to you..
    to support your statement of fact..
    with a request for data from me..
    to support a claim I've never made.

    Smoothe...

    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  14. #119
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by liteman View Post
    right now the insurance company is the one telling you how much help you'll get and you don't seem to mind.
    So true

    Quote Originally Posted by bk94si View Post
    Fast food is a result of prosperity. They don't have too many McDonalds in Afghanistan or New Guinea because few can afford to pay for it. Having money does not make people wise.
    THEY HAVE MCDONALDS IN CHINA!!!
    AND BEST BUY!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by bk94si View Post
    You can sue an insurance company if they mess with your care. You can't sue the government.
    This is why I love having a lawyer gf,I just showed her what you said and she started laughing.OF COURSE YOU CAN SUE THE GOVERMENT!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by /\/\adGamer View Post
    I didnt have any idols in office a year ago where you get that from? I wasnt for free health care when GW was president either theres nothing to figure out GANJY.

    See everyone is entitled to health care its just not free and never will be free even with this bull shit Obama care. No where in the constitution does it say our government is required to provide all its people with free health care insurance we are not entitled to that anymore than we are entitled to free car insurance,free house insurance, free food insurance, free dental insurance or any kind of other free insurance.
    You said the goverment cant get anything accomplished and im pointing out if you would have said that with bush in office....
    Quote Originally Posted by /\/\adGamer View Post
    See I am getting what I pay for I know up front what I get. Sadly when I am the one paying for your health care I wont get to tell you what you get for my money. And I can assure you wont get half as much as I am paying for now.
    MEMEMEMMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMMEMEMEME


    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter View Post
    It's funny how liberals react when asked to back their numbers/claims up.
    Funny how conservatives react when the numbers are backed up.....

    Quote Originally Posted by liteman View Post
    And there is the problem, only the well-off can get quality healthcare. Many people with "good" insurance die because their company denied them the care\ tests they really needed.

    I hope you never have to find out the hard way.
    Yet again,so true

    Quote Originally Posted by /\/\adGamer View Post
    I am far from well off. Ive been in the position of not being insured and the quality of care I got then was still outstanding it just wasn't free tho. I worked thru the hardship and still to this day wouldnt have it any other way. People like you trying to peddle the notion we need to be more like the other failed socialist countries is comical. These other countries turn down or better yet stall out and hender more people then our system now.Talk about people who die trying to get a transplant past the age of 50 in one of those countries. try getting something life saving done while in your 70's or 80's there too. This whole "we need a free health care plan"like the socialist europee ons is a joke. Like I said we cant afford this crap its not free. It's going to end up costing us ALL more in the long run then what we have now. Watch as we get closer to this debate in washington DC the cost is going to be the deal breaker.
    Would you be singing the same tune if you were poor and had no health insurance or if you had a job with "health insurance" thats denying you certain life saving things just so they can save money?

  15. #120
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    Re: Obama's "Public" Health Care Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter View Post
    Odd claim in light of the fact I've yet to have any "numbers" presented to me. His only response was to demand "proof" for a claim I've never made.
    I showed proof a few posts back to Tucker. I've yet to see yours.
    Fox News watchers are less informed - The Proof

    I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government in a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.
    - Thomas Jefferson

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