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  1. #31
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    Re: So why is nvidia lagging behind ATI in directx 11 cards?

    He has many grand soulgems!

    Has anyone else noticed nVidia's somewhat- of Intel's tick tock strategy? They modify it a little.

    Geforce 5: *Stumble* "Oh crap, we screwed up. How are we going to make this right?" *Looks at Intel* Hey, they've got a good beat...

    6xxxGT Tick ( new architecture )
    7xxx Tock ( Rehash of 6 series, focus on PCI-E migration )
    8xxx TICK-BANG! ( MAJOR new architecture )
    9xxx Tock
    GTX2<6x renaming of previous cards
    GTX2>5x Click-tick ( re-winding the clock, nothing HUGELY new here )
    Fermi: Tick-BANG!

    AMD appears to be being led around the nose quite a bit starting with the 1xxx series, as they've had to implement most of nVidia's extras on their cards. Their launch of DX11 is really a marketing ploy. What have we been able to test of it? Their fab plants can't keep up - the process is too new.

    nVidia could have put Fermi parts in our hands today if they'd pushed it out the door without making sure they had the parts ready on that fabrication process. I'd expect them to simultaneously launch 5 cards when they do. A sub 99 dollar one, a 120-160 dollar one, a 200-300 dollar one, a 350 dollar one, then their X2. They will stay in stock.
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  2. #32
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    Re: So why is nvidia lagging behind ATI in directx 11 cards?

    After reading the 5890 review Ryan posted I am still left unimpressed. I think AMD has a good lead here and I really think if they can actually get their products out there it will help. However I dont think it is a large enough lead to best a new release from nvidia. a 5890 isnt leaps and bounds faster than a 295 gtx. This isnt like a 9700pro killing a geforce 4 and nvidia responding with a 5800 ultra.

    I think right now the 5xxx series is a good showing and if they can get the stock out there it will be very profitable for AMD. However for me I'd rather wait for fermi for 2 reasons.
    A. The 5890 isn't going to be a huge upgrade over my 2 295 gtxs
    B. Fermi is either going to be better or at the least it will lower ATI's prices.

    The one thing I cant really stand behind in Ryan's review is saying the 5890 is a good value. At $600!? In these times!? The 295gtx released at $500 and most people thought it was too high. On newegg right now you can get a 295 for $450. That makes the 5890 an entire $150 more! Thats like getting a 295gtx and a 260 gtx. If ATI really wants this to take they should have made it $499 not $599.

  3. #33
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    Re: So why is nvidia lagging behind ATI in directx 11 cards?

    If ATI really wants this to take they should have made it $499 not $599.
    I have customers willing to pay $1000 for 5870's because of its demand (and their "loyalty" to Red)- AMD knows this too, haha. Every day (hell every 15 minutes) I'm scouring my suppliers for updates, and the only update is price change going up.

    To some, money doesnt matter. I'm located by a military base, and quite honestly, these kids coming back from Iraq and leaving for Afghanistan in 6-9 months will buy anything they want with no regard to future proof. I give deep discounts to those serving - as many I will never see again. I Draw a lot of experiance from these builds as well; many times I have dropped a $4000 quote against what I consider smarter buys and they choose the $4k best of best... just because.

    As to being impressed or not by what AMD/ATI is making well, its a great card, with rumors of already being replaced/uptrumped by a 6000 series in May. As per the norm, all the arguments will be flipped, with everyone saying Fermi is the best and AMD/ATI is obsolete.

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  4. #34
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    Re: So why is nvidia lagging behind ATI in directx 11 cards?

    Quote Originally Posted by mpulliam View Post
    I have customers willing to pay $1000 for 5870's because of its demand (and their "loyalty" to Red)- AMD knows this too, haha. Every day (hell every 15 minutes) I'm scouring my suppliers for updates, and the only update is price change going up.

    To some, money doesnt matter. I'm located by a military base, and quite honestly, these kids coming back from Iraq and leaving for Afghanistan in 6-9 months will buy anything they want with no regard to future proof. I give deep discounts to those serving - as many I will never see again. I Draw a lot of experiance from these builds as well; many times I have dropped a $4000 quote against what I consider smarter buys and they choose the $4k best of best... just because.

    As to being impressed or not by what AMD/ATI is making well, its a great card, with rumors of already being replaced/uptrumped by a 6000 series in May. As per the norm, all the arguments will be flipped, with everyone saying Fermi is the best and AMD/ATI is obsolete.

    I enjoy this age of technology.
    sounds like you are catering to a very niche group there. I don't think thats a fair asumption generally speaking. Hopefully I am not crazy on this either because who wants to spend more money? I make plenty and my systems are pretty bleeding edge but I can still tell the difference between a good deal and a rip off. Regardless if some people might pay it, more people would pay it if it was priced correctly.

  5. #35
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    Re: So why is nvidia lagging behind ATI in directx 11 cards?

    I am very big on "best bang for buck" - look at my gaming rig, but to some people as soon as you say "this is your best bang for buck" they get turned off and leave. Some are opposite and if you say "your best option" their response is "whats two levels cheaper?" In my experiance, the military crew that drives up in a 2009 Camero or Charger, tells me that they just bought a 42" plasma and want to game on it before leaving in 3-9 months for the sand pile - they choose high end parts. I could argue till the cows crow, it would make no difference (other then putting them off and losing a sell) they want "what I seen in this magazine".

    Niche? Obviously.

    Regardless if some people might pay it, more people would pay it if it was priced correctly.
    It isnt like that when the window of bleeding edge is only 1%. A card that is hard to get selling for $1000, vrs a card readily available for $600 will still only sell 10-15 units a month. I understand what your saying, but honestly, they guy walking in off the street wanting to buy a $600+ card will still buy it if its $1000 and the only one on the shelf.

    I dont gouge people regardless - I have a simple mark up for my parts/services, so no matter if they offer me $10,000 for a card I pay $380 for, I still only charge my fixed markup on my cost. They can offer all they want, there is a reason they always come back to me - my fair practices. A lot of my customers laugh because more times then not, I'm pushing money back at them when they leave.

    Its funny in this business - you have a return customer that you built a box for in the 90's and they paid $3000 - $4000 for it back in '97. So they come in with the mindset that a new computer will cost as much (so many clients, esp the elderly do ZERO research). They drop $3k on the counter and say build me one just like you did back then, and I giggle... Whip up a quote that is in the $700-1300 range and push back half their money for something wicked fast and modern.

    Again...

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  6. #36
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    Re: So why is nvidia lagging behind ATI in directx 11 cards?

    I just do not agree here. You will see more revenue with a high availability $500 part than a low availability $600 part that ends up selling for $900. There are SOME people who will still drop the $900 but there are more people who will pay the $500. Ill prove it when we can compare the first 3 months of 5890 sales to the first 3 months of 295 gtx sales. When the 295 came out it was the best of the best dual gpu just like the 5890 except it was estimated to be $499 and It was that price instantly everywhere and only went lower over time. It also was in good supply.

  7. #37
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    Re: So why is nvidia lagging behind ATI in directx 11 cards?

    I'm not sure what your disagreeing to?

    There are SOME people who will still drop the $900 but there are more people who will pay the $500.
    There are even more that will buy the 4870/90 or GTS250/gtx260's. Your missing the point of the 1% bleeding edge. I make MORE money selling 260/4870's then I ever will with bleeding edge. I sold 1 GTX295 and 2 9800GX2 in the last 3 months vs the 12 GTX260/275's, 3 4890's, and 4 4870's LAST month (we wont even get into onboard Intel grfx sales lol). I could care less about the bleeding edge sales, as I make the SAME margin/mark up regardless of part/price.

    My point is/was to the guy that is willing to spend 500+ on a video card that will be obsolete in 6 months, paying 1000 is no sweat off his back. If a guy wants to keep up with the Jones or even better blow their virtual doors off - he does it.

    Most of us dont build like that. We count on research or peer education to steer us into "bang for buck" gaming. The same reason a lot of us are not buying into the dx11 hype just yet. Its not that we dislike AMD/ATI or think DX11 is a gimmick - its that we dont need it TODAY.

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  8. #38
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    Re: So why is nvidia lagging behind ATI in directx 11 cards?

    My point is bleeding edge can still be priced competively. It doesnt have to be a rip off just because its the best. The 295 gtx was priced correctly.

  9. #39
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    Re: So why is nvidia lagging behind ATI in directx 11 cards?

    Best performance = strap a compressor on it, stick the evaporator in the case, seal it off, and OC the $(&*@ out of it, whatever it may be.


    I do see the bias in this site's reviews, but it WAS originally AMDMB.com, at one point there was dancing and great joy when AMD's X2 card beat one of nVidia's single GPU cards. "Huzzah, hurray, two GPUs can beat one! That makes this the fastest card on the market! Ignore the power consumption, ignore the price, it's the best GPU on the market. Shhh, it's really TWO gpus but we're going to celebrate like it was one."

    You shouldn't throw the losing company a bone. You should give the innovating company your business. AMD is still a "Me to!" company - early DX10 and DX11 support before there was any use of it, and their DX10.1 fiasco ( which everyone blamed nVidia for, even though the new features heavily favored AMD ).
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  10. #40
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    Re: So why is nvidia lagging behind ATI in directx 11 cards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Windrunner View Post
    Best performance = strap a compressor on it, stick the evaporator in the case, seal it off, and OC the $(&*@ out of it, whatever it may be.


    I do see the bias in this site's reviews, but it WAS originally AMDMB.com, at one point there was dancing and great joy when AMD's X2 card beat one of nVidia's single GPU cards. "Huzzah, hurray, two GPUs can beat one! That makes this the fastest card on the market! Ignore the power consumption, ignore the price, it's the best GPU on the market. Shhh, it's really TWO gpus but we're going to celebrate like it was one."

    You shouldn't throw the losing company a bone. You should give the innovating company your business. AMD is still a "Me to!" company - early DX10 and DX11 support before there was any use of it, and their DX10.1 fiasco ( which everyone blamed nVidia for, even though the new features heavily favored AMD ).
    I'm very aware this used to be AMDMB. I have been here for some time and I was one of the people who heavily protested its change to PCPER. However I am not really calling Ryan biased I just really disagree that $600 est. for a 5890 is a good deal.

  11. #41
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    Re: So why is nvidia lagging behind ATI in directx 11 cards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bearded Frog View Post
    I'm very aware this used to be AMDMB. I have been here for some time and I was one of the people who heavily protested its change to PCPER. However I am not really calling Ryan biased I just really disagree that $600 est. for a 5890 is a good deal.
    it's not a great deal, but it's basically 2 5870's, and isn't it called the 5970? so it's not really a bad deal either. it's just a deal that most people will likely pass on. if it was in the mid 400 dollar range i'd consider one for an eyefinity setup, but they're priced it outside of my comfortability (not actually a word) zone.
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  12. #42
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    Re: So why is nvidia lagging behind ATI in directx 11 cards?

    So why is nvidia lagging behind ATI in directx 11 cards?
    Jen-Hsun said something about it that it's about the strategy. (lol)

  13. #43
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    Re: So why is nvidia lagging behind ATI in directx 11 cards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Windrunner View Post
    Best performance = strap a compressor on it, stick the evaporator in the case, seal it off, and OC the $(&*@ out of it, whatever it may be.


    I do see the bias in this site's reviews, but it WAS originally AMDMB.com, at one point there was dancing and great joy when AMD's X2 card beat one of nVidia's single GPU cards. "Huzzah, hurray, two GPUs can beat one! That makes this the fastest card on the market! Ignore the power consumption, ignore the price, it's the best GPU on the market. Shhh, it's really TWO gpus but we're going to celebrate like it was one."

    You shouldn't throw the losing company a bone. You should give the innovating company your business. AMD is still a "Me to!" company - early DX10 and DX11 support before there was any use of it, and their DX10.1 fiasco ( which everyone blamed nVidia for, even though the new features heavily favored AMD ).
    A pretty useless post.

    1st paragraph, wow, whoopdedoo

    2nd paragraph. Apparently the bias isn't so bad that you decided to leave in the last 5 years. Your memory though long has holes, as Ryan did comment on the weaknesses of the 2 gpu solution, and you don't remember how enthusiastic Ryan is for every "fastest card on the planet". That review is so old I thought for a while you were referring to this one http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid...e=expert&pid=1 and didn't know the difference between a 295 and a 285.

    3rd paragraph Being the first out with support for the newest software can hardly be described as "me too". The dx10.x fiasco was a Vista fiasco, the lack of XP support killed it. The blame goes to Microsoft not ATI or nVidia. Win7 however seems to have much more promise and if game makers ever try to catch up with the hardware dx11 will be good to have.

    You seem to be an expert on the fanboy arguments which we try to keep in their place here at PCPer. If you want one start your own thread
    If you have a problem with bias in PCPer reviews, comment on it in a discussion of the review or start your own thread. You will have to back up your opinion but you won't be disrespected. I've been known to lay into a review I disagree with and they made me a Mod.

    Their are plenty of forums that can't have a serious discussion without getting clogged up by fanboy stuff. Keep it there.

    This thread will be locked if we don't get back on topic..
    Last edited by TheGlasMan; 11-27-2009 at 07:53 AM.


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  14. #44
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    Re: So why is nvidia lagging behind ATI in directx 11 cards?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGlasMan View Post
    and they made me a Mod.


    I never understood that either...


    M

  15. #45
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    Re: So why is nvidia lagging behind ATI in directx 11 cards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Windrunner View Post
    He has many grand soulgems!
    Heh... In my original run through I trapped Almalexia's soul and made an ebony staff with 2000 charges and a truck load of absorb health damage.
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