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  1. #106
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    Re: NYC community board OKs ground zero mosque plans

    Quote Originally Posted by tucker View Post
    btw… Salon really isn’t what I would call a reliable nonpartisan (fair & balanced) publication.
    I thought that was irrelevant in this forum. Okay, we can point out partisan or unreliable sources if that's a sufficient counter-point. Just about nothing will be discussed... but sure.

    Now... you seemed to have missed something:

    Quote Originally Posted by Phopojijo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by tucker View Post
    I still fail to see how denying a building permit is interfering with freedom of religion. A commission can deny building permits for a vast number of reasons. I’d like to see a synagogue and a catholic church built right next door to the mosque. Do you think the commission would approve of that?

    The answer is hell no…

    That’s a pretty high rent area I’d still like to see where the funding is coming from.
    Denying a building permit is not interfering with freedom of religion. Firing someone is not interfering with freedom of religion. Firing someone because you hate their religion is interfering with freedom of religion.
    Last edited by Phopojijo; 06-10-2010 at 03:25 PM.

  2. #107
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    Re: NYC community board OKs ground zero mosque plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Phopojijo View Post
    I thought that was irrelevant in this forum. Okay, we can point out partisan or unreliable sources if that's a sufficient counter-point. Just about nothing will be discussed... but sure.

    Now... you seemed to have missed something:

    And you seem to be drifting off topic I said nothing about employment, nothing about firing and nothing about hating anybodies religion. What I did say is the permit for that mosque could have been turned down for other reasons not related to hating anything. Although building that mosque in that location is bound to cause hate, discontent and anger and by god it certainly has.

    They’ve achieved their objective...
    Last edited by tucker; 06-10-2010 at 03:53 PM.

  3. #108
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    Re: NYC community board OKs ground zero mosque plans

    the other reasons would merely have been a cover for religious censorship.
    Max Plank: "A new scientific truth does not
    triumph by convincing its opponents and making them
    see the light,
    but rather because its opponents eventually die"
    Arthur Shopenhauer: "Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized.
    First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is opposed. Third, it is regarded as self evident."
    Martin Niemöller:
    "When the Nazis came for the communists,
    I remained silent;I was not a communist.
    When they locked up the social democrats,I remained silent;
    I was not a social democrat.When they came for the trade unionists,I did not speak out;
    I was not a trade unionist.When they came for the Jews,
    I remained silent;I wasn't a Jew.When they came for me,
    there was no one left to speak out."

  4. #109
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    Re: NYC community board OKs ground zero mosque plans

    Quote Originally Posted by tucker View Post
    And you seem to be drifting off topic I said nothing about employment, nothing about firing and nothing about hating anybodies religion. What I did say is the permit for that mosque could have been turned down for other reasons not related to hating anything. Although building that mosque in that location is bound to cause hate, discontent and anger and by god it certainly has.

    They’ve achieved their objective...
    Wow, you totally don't get it. You're right, it has nothing to do with employment -- I was illustrating a subtle but huge legal discrepancy in more commonly understood terms.

    Since you don't seem to be able to think illustratively... I'll be very clear and direct with you and not use any... complicated metaphors.

    You're totally right, that permit could have been turned down for any other reasons other than religion. It wasn't, because none of them applied.

    If you're suggesting it was approved even though it violated some other code... you need to provide evidence because I've seen absolutely no evidence of the plans violating some building code or zoning bylaw.

    If you're suggesting it should be denied on religious basis but covered up as something else... then that is criminal discrimination to religion AND potentially perjury and/or fraud... depending on how the permits are issued and how it's wrongfully denied. ... ... and it really doesn't help your case about not interfering with freedom of religion. It also violates the US Constitution... which I guess you care nothing about.
    Last edited by Phopojijo; 06-11-2010 at 03:14 PM.

  5. #110
    Joined
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    Posts
    5,171

    Re: NYC community board OKs ground zero mosque plans

    that was exactly what he was suggesting.


    you see, we have so many laws nowadays that meeting them all can be a tricky matter. you can't even really tell if one end of the law conflicts with another or not anymore. so, it's very easy to find something wrong with something you don't like and stop it for that reason.
    Max Plank: "A new scientific truth does not
    triumph by convincing its opponents and making them
    see the light,
    but rather because its opponents eventually die"
    Arthur Shopenhauer: "Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized.
    First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is opposed. Third, it is regarded as self evident."
    Martin Niemöller:
    "When the Nazis came for the communists,
    I remained silent;I was not a communist.
    When they locked up the social democrats,I remained silent;
    I was not a social democrat.When they came for the trade unionists,I did not speak out;
    I was not a trade unionist.When they came for the Jews,
    I remained silent;I wasn't a Jew.When they came for me,
    there was no one left to speak out."

  6. #111
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    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    644

    Re: NYC community board OKs ground zero mosque plans

    Okay, so let's all make an agreement that whenever Tucker (specifically) says anything about the constitution, we'll just ask since when does he care about it. It can be our lil' meme. (Just kidding... though I might do it once or twice.)

    And that's one of the major problems with a lot of laws written... many laws are written with such a broad stroke that it can be interpreted (/perverted) in non-obvious (but often intended) ways.

    That's one of the good things about the US Constitution... it was painted very clearly because it had a very specific job to accomplish. Obviously it alone isn't sufficient to make up a legal system... but what it covers it very clearly and concisely covers. There is only just a little interpretation possible.

    Ironically, however, my country tends to follow it more closely than the last decade of United States history. Even our healthcare system conforms with the US constitution.

  7. #112
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    Re: NYC community board OKs ground zero mosque plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Phopojijo View Post
    Okay, so let's all make an agreement that whenever Tucker (specifically) says anything about the constitution, we'll just ask since when does he care about it. It can be our lil' meme. (Just kidding... though I might do it once or twice.)

    I didn’t specifically say anything about the constitution what I said is if the permit would have been turned down it wouldn’t have nesicerily been for religious reasons. In other words it’s possible it could have been turned down for other reasons not related to religion. There is a fair share of supposition in this forum so you’ll just have to learn to live with it.

    I know that’s a hard concept to follow but a constitutional expert like you should be able to figure it out.

    btw… I see your healthcare system up north of the border is starting to wobble a little bit. Who would of thought such a thing could happen.
    Last edited by tucker; 06-11-2010 at 07:53 PM.

  8. #113
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    Re: NYC community board OKs ground zero mosque plans

    A confrontational hearing on Staten Island over a proposed mosque touched off so much emotion that it's prompted a closer look at the group that wants to build it: the Muslim American Society.

    Thursday night at a packed hearing, a proposal to build a mosque on Staten Island ran into some heated opposition.

    The group that wants to build a mosque and community center on what had been a Catholic convent is the Muslim American Society. Founded in Virginia in 1993, they have built mosques and community centers in the Bath Beach section of Brooklyn, they say, to promote understanding. One of the people at the hearing challenged the leader of the mosque, Mohamed Sadeia, to denounce Hamas and Hezbollah:

    Those in attendance felt Sadeia twice avoided a direct answer, until he finally spoke out against terrorism generally.

    "There is no relationship, as we stand today, between MAS, the Muslim American Society, and any foreign entity," Sadeia said.

    While the Muslim American Society is not on any government list of terrorist organizations, Hamas and Hezbollah are. Annemarie McAvoy, a former federal prosecutor, saw a video on the Internet, like many people at Wednesday night's meeting, which shows a current director of the Muslim American Society eight years ago cheering at a Washington rally when the crowd is asked, "Who supports Hamas?" and then "Who supports Hezbollah?"

    Sadeia said that man's eight-year-old opinion did not speak for his group, but strong doubts about the Muslim American Society remain:

    "A couple of the founders apparently are members of the Muslim Brotherhood," said McAvoy. "Apparently the Muslim Brotherhood has a lot of ties to Muslim extremists

    CBS 2 made repeated efforts to interview Sadeia on Thursday or some other leader from the Muslim American Society, but messages were not answered. After facing such strong opposition Wednesday night, it is not clear if the group still plans to build the mosque.


    http://wcbstv.com/local/staten.islan...2.1745014.html

    I'll be dipped.

  9. #114
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    Location
    Ontario, Canada
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    Re: NYC community board OKs ground zero mosque plans

    Quote Originally Posted by tucker View Post
    I didn’t specifically say anything about the constitution what I said is if the permit would have been turned down it wouldn’t have nesicerily been for religious reasons. In other words it’s possible it could have been turned down for other reasons not related to religion. There is a fair share of supposition in this forum so you’ll just have to learn to live with it.

    I know that’s a hard concept to follow but a constitutional expert like you should be able to figure it out.

    btw… I see your healthcare system up north of the border is starting to wobble a little bit. Who would of thought such a thing could happen.
    You still don't get it. Try hard and think.

    Of course a community centre that violates building and/or zoning codes or bylaws shouldn't get approved. That would be perfectly reasonable... and people arguing for it to be built anyway would be the discriminatory ones.

    ... until you provide evidence otherwise, that is not the case in this situation.

    So -- denying its application for a reason that is false is dishonest -- possibly to the point of fraud or perjury... depending on how the application process worked (example -- the signature area could say "You verify that all information is correct under penalty of perjury" or something). Not necessarily religiously based... but with your comment about a church and a synagogue is enough to suggest that it is... also -- searching really hard for a legal loophole because you want to deny the community centre for religious reasons is also religious discrimination.

    ... following me now buddy? : D
    Last edited by Phopojijo; 06-12-2010 at 06:52 PM.

  10. #115
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    Location
    Grand Rapids, Michigan
    Age
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    6,438

    Re: NYC community board OKs ground zero mosque plans

    Quote Originally Posted by tucker View Post
    I'll be dipped.
    Really ridiculous. Why should they even be questioned in the first place? If it's U.S. Soil then it should be fair game for any belief/religion. Also really ridiculous how minor these connections they're making are. Might as well just go ahead and make the connection with Muslim=terrorist.

    Hey, I hear the pope has ties to the people who started the crusades. What now?

  11. #116
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    Re: NYC community board OKs ground zero mosque plans

    I'd expect you'd go the IRA route -- surprised me

    ((Again... before people go any say "It's only okay if it's Christian bashing"... I AM CHRISTIAN... Roman Catholic specifically. This is just humour.))

  12. #117
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    Re: NYC community board OKs ground zero mosque plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Phopojijo View Post
    I'd expect you'd go the IRA route -- surprised me

    ((Again... before people go any say "It's only okay if it's Christian bashing"... I AM CHRISTIAN... Roman Catholic specifically. This is just humour.))
    Not really sure what you're refering to here at all.

  13. #118
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    Location
    Oregon
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    Re: NYC community board OKs ground zero mosque plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Bearded Frog View Post
    Really ridiculous. Why should they even be questioned in the first place? If it's U.S. Soil then it should be fair game for any belief/religion. Also really ridiculous how minor these connections they're making are. Might as well just go ahead and make the connection with Muslim=terrorist.

    Hey, I hear the pope has ties to the people who started the crusades. What now?
    If we wanted to we could arrest the pope and about 10,000 other catholic leaders for being conspirators in the greatest child molestation/terrorism cover up/scheme in history. I mean what more defines terrorism than molesting children?

    Perhaps we shouldn't be allowing the Catholic Church to operate within a certain distance of schools.

  14. #119
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    644

    Re: NYC community board OKs ground zero mosque plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Bearded Frog View Post
    Not really sure what you're refering to here at all.
    I was joking -- "I was expecting you to go the IRA route {{as opposed to the Crusades route}}"

    You know... Ireland vs England -- Catholic vs Protestant.

  15. #120
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    Re: NYC community board OKs ground zero mosque plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Phopojijo View Post
    I was joking -- "I was expecting you to go the IRA route {{as opposed to the Crusades route}}"

    You know... Ireland vs England -- Catholic vs Protestant.
    I thought the IRA was really just about being seperate from England via a revolutionist army route. Wasn't aware religion was really involved but then again I guess I wouldn't call myself an expert on that situation.

    Regarless there are plenty of examples there (blackdragon posting another). Again brings me back to EVERY religon being able to be tied to some sort of atrocity (except maybe the buddists... except on the victims end).

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