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  1. #166
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    Re: US Domestic Energy / Energy policy

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragon24 View Post
    This right here is why you are impossible to argue with. And by mean impossible, I mean it makes absolutely no sense to. Your reasoning for not wanting to hold oil companies accountable for hiring American workers is backed by flawed immigration policy that you constantly rail against as well.

    How do you even keep it all straight?

    You obviously don't think it is a good idea for



    But then you use that as justification to not hold oil companies accountable for hiring American workers if they want to drill off American shores? I guess we should all just start flinging poop at each other then eh? Because there is no rhyme of reason to your argument

    It's ok Scoot you are a republican. You don't need to take any real position that holds you accountable
    I'm impossible to argue with? Why is that BD? Because I choose to only answer parts of responses I feel I can defend? Oh wait... that's not me doing that. Lemme just add a few items to the list of topics you no longer wanna talk about before I carry on.. it helps me "keep it all straight".

    oil companies are not hiring
    Record profits
    Tax breaks
    green energy subsidies and tax breaks
    energy independence
    subsidizing other countries drilling




    So where are we now? Ah yes.. focusing on "American jobs". I said Nope and I meant it. I stand by my position. I do love how fast the libberal knee jerks whenever immigration is brought up. But as long as I have you on the hook my wise friend.. do me a favor and give central planning a call. I'd love to know aside from OMFGBIGOIL, what other industries they think we should be able to force to use American workers only?

    Here is a lil video I dug up that might help ease your mind a little in regard to the benefits of what renewed oil production are as well as the result of the SCOAMF's™ illegal policies have done. Original article and linkage in the oil spill thread:



    Last edited by AMDScooter; 09-13-2011 at 03:24 AM.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  2. #167
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    Re: US Domestic Energy / Energy policy

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter View Post
    I'm impossible to argue with? Why is that BD? Because I choose to only answer parts of responses I feel I can defend?
    Nope that's not it. It's because you use logic like this (all paraphrased):

    Me: Do you think we should do anything to make sure oil companies hire american workers if they are drilling off of american shores?

    You: Nope why should I? The government is already complicit in the hiring of millions of illegals so why should we hold the oil companies to a different standard.


    So lemme get this straight:

    Oil companies shouldn't be encouraged to hire American workers because of our nation's flawed immigration policy.

    Got it.

    Oh wait, no I don't.

    It doesn't make any friggin sense.

    As far as your green energy topics that got brought into this discussion, I am a big proponent of tax breaks for green energy businesses starting up, or for any business for that matter. I would prefer however, that these tax breaks go to businesses with sound business models. Solyndra, which has turned into the black eye of the green energy program, was a shit business model from the beginning and never should have been given government guaranteed loans based on that. I commented on that in your Solyndra thread.

    So when a green energy company comes along with a good business model starts making billions upon billions of dollars of profits all the while getting tax subsidies from the government, I'll be a strong proponent for encouraging them to hire American workers. Especially if they want to use American resources to make their money.

    My $.02

  3. #168
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    Re: US Domestic Energy / Energy policy

    BD, I think your argument is a big, fat red herring.

    I have never heard of it, anywhere, that there is a problem of illegal aliens working on off-shore oil platforms.

    So I posed it to my cousin who's an engineer at Shell on a rig in the North Sea and his answer was rather curt. He claims it most likely wouldn't be tolerated. The crews are closely knit and highly scrutinized. He thought it a rather funny concept... to try to save a few bucks on people who generate so much revenue and cost so much to transport and house.

    Maybe you have a better source for your concern.

  4. #169
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    Re: US Domestic Energy / Energy policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchcedar View Post
    BD, I think your argument is a big, fat red herring.

    I have never heard of it, anywhere, that there is a problem of illegal aliens working on off-shore oil platforms.

    So I posed it to my cousin who's an engineer at Shell on a rig in the North Sea and his answer was rather curt. He claims it most likely wouldn't be tolerated. The crews are closely knit and highly scrutinized. He thought it a rather funny concept... to try to save a few bucks on people who generate so much revenue and cost so much to transport and house.

    Maybe you have a better source for your concern.
    I think you missed the point of my posts.

    I asked Scooter this:

    Do you have any interest in making sure that the oil companies would hire American workers if they would be drilling off of American shores?
    He responded with this:

    Nope. Why should we hold oil companies to a different standard than we do our own gubberment? Last I checked we have millions of illegals from Mexico here taking American jobs as is with the gubberment nearly entirely complicit in the enterprise.
    I'm just trying to understand the logic is all. I'm arguing for the idea that if we are going to drill off american shores, we should encourage companies to hire american workers. Through tax breaks, regulations, or whatever is pragmatic. I don't really know what Scooter is arguing for. I definitely know what he is arguing against.

  5. #170
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    Re: US Domestic Energy / Energy policy

    ^^^ BD, if there isn't a problem with illegals working on offshore rigs, suggesting that there should be a concern over that, especially while ignoring the other valid points, is a red herring.

    I don't follow your logic other than seeing your red herring as a way to avoid the myriad of issues you passed over.
    I'm arguing for the idea that if we are going to drill off american shores, we should encourage companies to hire american workers.
    Unless you can show that this a problem that exists, what's the value of your point?

    I'm arguing for the idea that if we are going to ski on American ski slopes, we should encourage companies to only use American snow. We should pursue this non-problem with a federally funded grant to Dutchcedar of a few kazillion dollars to establish the compliance by all American ski resorts.

    Can you understand the logic there?

  6. #171
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    Re: US Domestic Energy / Energy policy

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragon24 View Post
    Nope that's not it. It's because you use logic like this (all paraphrased):
    Actually it's more like this:

    You: OMFGBIGOILRECORDPROFITSTAXBREAKS!
    Me: Here are the facts to rebut your anti oil rhetoric.
    You: LALALALALLLALALA...... let's talk about American jobs.



    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragon24 View Post
    So lemme get this straight:

    Oil companies shouldn't be encouraged to hire American workers because of our nation's flawed immigration policy.

    Got it.

    Oh wait, no I don't.

    It doesn't make any friggin sense.
    My answer was no. Why should any company (oil or other) be compelled to hire Americans? They are private enterprises. Sorry you still find that so confusing.

    I brought up illegals from Mexico because they are like a protected species to you libberals. You don't wanna secure the border and think the ones here should be granted amnesty. How does that jibe with the "hire Americans" in regard to the oil industry? Like Jack Daniels and milk. Can't have it both ways.

    P.S. I'm still waiting for that list of other industries you think should be "encouraged" to use American workers only? Because what you are proposing makes far less sense than my "no" answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragon24 View Post
    As far as your green energy topics that got brought into this discussion, I am a big proponent of tax breaks for green energy businesses starting up, or for any business for that matter. I would prefer however, that these tax breaks go to businesses with sound business models. Solyndra, which has turned into the black eye of the green energy program, was a shit business model from the beginning and never should have been given government guaranteed loans based on that. I commented on that in your Solyndra thread.

    So when a green energy company comes along with a good business model starts making billions upon billions of dollars of profits all the while getting tax subsidies from the government, I'll be a strong proponent for encouraging them to hire American workers. Especially if they want to use American resources to make their money.

    My $.02
    The reason "greens" got brought into the conversation was due to your "tax breaks" talking point. Turns out that "renewable/green" energy get's the lions share of what subsidies there are to the tune of BILLIONS of dollars.

    H.R. 6, the 2005 energy bill that contained $14.3 billion in subsidies for energy companies. However, as we’ve reported numerous times, a vast majority of those subsidies (all but $2.8 billion) were for nuclear power, energy-efficient cars and buildings, and renewable fuels research.
    The subsidies for oil companies actually resulted in a net tax increase for oil producers.

    In addition, according to the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service, the tax changes in the 2005 energy bill produced a net tax increase for the oil and gas companies, as we’ve reported time and time and time again. They did get some breaks, but they had more taken away.
    I'd wager that the vast majority of those billions for "renewable/greens" will never be seen again. $7500 bucks to buy a Volt anyone?? FREE MONEY!! Many "green" companies wither and die without huge injections of taxpayer subsidies. Greens/renewables get Billions in subsidies and tax breaks.. rarely turn a profit.. don't generate anything remotely close to what the oil industry does in actual energy, taxes or jobs. Yet OMFGBIGOIL gets the lions share of libberal ire.

    How exactly is it that GE never gets the OMFGBIGOIL treatment? They don't pay their "fair share" in taxes... get a f*cktonne of gubberment subsidies and are offshoring jobs to China.



    Oh... nevermind. Forget I asked.

    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  7. #172
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    Re: US Domestic Energy / Energy policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchcedar View Post
    ^^^ BD, if there isn't a problem with illegals working on offshore rigs, suggesting that there should be a concern over that, especially while ignoring the other valid points, is a red herring.

    I don't follow your logic other than seeing your red herring as a way to avoid the myriad of issues you passed over.Unless you can show that this a problem that exists, what's the value of your point?

    I'm arguing for the idea that if we are going to ski on American ski slopes, we should encourage companies to only use American snow. We should pursue this non-problem with a federally funded grant to Dutchcedar of a few kazillion dollars to establish the compliance by all American ski resorts.

    Can you understand the logic there?
    ^^^
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  8. #173
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    Re: US Domestic Energy / Energy policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchcedar View Post
    ^^^ BD, if there isn't a problem with illegals working on offshore rigs, suggesting that there should be a concern over that, especially while ignoring the other valid points, is a red herring.

    I don't follow your logic other than seeing your red herring as a way to avoid the myriad of issues you passed over.Unless you can show that this a problem that exists, what's the value of your point?

    I'm arguing for the idea that if we are going to ski on American ski slopes, we should encourage companies to only use American snow. We should pursue this non-problem with a federally funded grant to Dutchcedar of a few kazillion dollars to establish the compliance by all American ski resorts.

    Can you understand the logic there?
    I'm sorry I still don't follow. I don't think anyone is saying that hiring illegals on oil rigs is a problem. I just would like to know that if we were going to allow drilling off american shores to produce oil that that we aren't even certain is going to have any short-term or long-term effect on our energy independence as a nation, I'd like to at least know that americans were getting the jobs....so we can at least get something for the fact that they are going to take the oil and continue making their record profits. That's all. It's hard for me to understand why anyone would not want this, or why anyone would say that they wouldn't want this because the government allows illegal aliens to work in the US.

    Hence, my posts.

  9. #174
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    Re: US Domestic Energy / Energy policy

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter View Post
    My answer was no. Why should any company (oil or other) be compelled to hire Americans? They are private enterprises. Sorry you still find that so confusing.
    Because they are using our nation's resources to profit and taking tax subsidies?

    I brought up illegals from Mexico because they are like a protected species to you libberals. You don't wanna secure the border and think the ones here should be granted amnesty. How does that jibe with the "hire Americans" in regard to the oil industry? Like Jack Daniels and milk. Can't have it both ways.
    Well Scoot, illegal immigation is probably the one issue that I am conservative on, so steeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiikkkkkke.

    P.S. I'm still waiting for that list of other industries you think should be "encouraged" to use American workers only? Because what you are proposing makes far less sense than my "no" answer.
    Any industry that wants to do business in the US and receives goverment assistance. How's that. Its a pretty long list. I'd be more in favor of incentivizing (is that a word?) businesses to hire American workers.

    The reason "greens" got brought into the conversation was due to your "tax breaks" talking point. Turns out that "renewable/green" energy get's the lions share of what subsidies there are to the tune of BILLIONS of dollars.
    I'd certainly like them to be profitable and hire American workers too, Scoot.

    The subsidies for oil companies actually resulted in a net tax increase for oil producers.
    On their record breaking profits, yeah, I know. $4 gasoline. Cry me a friggin river.

    I'd wager that the vast majority of those billions for "renewable/greens" will never be seen again. $7500 bucks to buy a Volt anyone?? FREE MONEY!! Many "green" companies wither and die without huge injections of taxpayer subsidies. Greens/renewables get Billions in subsidies and tax breaks.. rarely turn a profit.. don't generate anything remotely close to what the oil industry does in actual energy, taxes or jobs. Yet OMFGBIGOIL gets the lions share of libberal ire.
    See above

    How exactly is it that GE never gets the OMFGBIGOIL treatment? They don't pay their "fair share" in taxes... get a f*cktonne of gubberment subsidies and are offshoring jobs to China.
    Line em all up and Set em down Scoot. Put them in the same category as the big oil companies. Don't get any argument from me. IIRC it was the NYT that blew up the story on the GE not paying taxes thingy....those evil libtards.

    And FWIW, the OMFGBIGOIL treatment is still a result of the worst oil spill we've had....ever. You can understand why people are still a little bit skeptical for new drilling in the Gulf. At least I do.

  10. #175
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    Re: US Domestic Energy / Energy policy

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragon24 View Post
    I'm sorry I still don't follow. I don't think anyone is saying that hiring illegals on oil rigs is a problem.
    Previously...
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragon24 View Post
    I'm arguing for the idea that if we are going to drill off american shores, we should encourage companies to hire american workers. Through tax breaks, regulations, or whatever is pragmatic.
    So, breaking it down, you're suggesting tax breaks and regulations to ensure that a problem you yourself say does not exist does not get created.

    That should be in the Obama Doctrine.

    Or the Guide to Being a Good Liberal.

    Conservative translation: Piss other peoples' money up a rope in order to look like you're improving the economy when in reality, you're choking it by the gonads.

    Sorry, I still see little more than a big, fat red herring.

  11. #176
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    Re: US Domestic Energy / Energy policy

    Hell illegal workers are treated better than American workers and there really is no differentiation between American workers and illegal workers by this frigging regime.

    If this regime was really interested in hiring American workers they would close the frigging southern door.

    This president is stroking union workers with one hand and stroking illegal workers with the other hand.

  12. #177
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    Re: US Domestic Energy / Energy policy

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragon24 View Post
    Because they are using our nation's resources to profit and taking tax subsidies?
    As noted above.. the "subsidies" resulted in a net tax increase. Also, they incur all the financial risk to find, extract and and process those resources along with paying for the "privilege" (via leases) to do so. Add in all the bullsh*t regulatory crap the SCOAMF administration keeps tossing at them... what exactly do you feel the energy producers still owe?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragon24 View Post
    Well Scoot, illegal immigation is probably the one issue that I am conservative on, so steeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiikkkkkke.
    Well goodey then. How about having a long talk with the rest of your party?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragon24 View Post
    Any industry that wants to do business in the US and receives goverment assistance. How's that. Its a pretty long list. I'd be more in favor of incentivizing (is that a word?) businesses to hire American workers.
    By "gubberment assistance" you mean tax breaks?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragon24 View Post
    I'd certainly like them to be profitable and hire American workers too, Scoot.
    And yet with "greens/renewables" taking the lions share of the Billions in subsidies you only seem to berate energy producers. An industry who creates real energy(and lots of it), generate tax revenue (and lots of it) and jobs(quite a few of those as well). I'd certainly like to see a lil more parity from the left. Cuz the constant demonizing of oil makes your entire side look silly in light of the facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragon24 View Post
    On their record breaking profits, yeah, I know. $4 gasoline. Cry me a friggin river.
    See: "supply and demand" along with "41% average tax rate" above.

    -or-

    Continue to flog those same baseless and tired libberal anti-oil talking points already proved false.



    steeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiikkkkkke.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragon24 View Post
    See above
    Alrighty then.. leme drag the corpse down..



    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragon24 View Post
    Line em all up and Set em down Scoot. Put them in the same category as the big oil companies. Don't get any argument from me. IIRC it was the NYT that blew up the story on the GE not paying taxes thingy....those evil libtards.
    But you don't "line them up". You narrowly focus on the most minor offender oil. And never... and I say never... condemn the most prolific and habitual offenders renewables/greens who are not even close to being in "the same category". When looking at the actual numbers, they are far worse by orders of magnitude. And when the numbers are brought up... you come down with a bad case of "hire Americans". How did you put it earlier??

    steeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiikkkkkke.



    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragon24 View Post
    And FWIW, the OMFGBIGOIL treatment is still a result of the worst oil spill we've had....ever. You can understand why people are still a little bit skeptical for new drilling in the Gulf. At least I do.
    Sorry. The lefts open hatred of energy producers predates the oil spill by decades. Another

    steeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiikkkkkke.

    That's 3 for those counting.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  13. #178
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    Re: US Domestic Energy / Energy policy

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragon24 View Post
    I'm sorry I still don't follow. I don't think anyone is saying that hiring illegals on oil rigs is a problem. I just would like to know that if we were going to allow drilling off american shores to produce oil that that we aren't even certain is going to have any short-term or long-term effect on our energy independence as a nation, I'd like to at least know that americans were getting the jobs....so we can at least get something for the fact that they are going to take the oil and continue making their record profits. That's all. It's hard for me to understand why anyone would not want this, or why anyone would say that they wouldn't want this because the government allows illegal aliens to work in the US.

    Hence, my posts.
    I get it.

    You don't think anyone is saying that hiring illegals on oil rigs is a problem...

    You simply don't understand why anyone would wonder why you brought the issue of "American jobs" into the thread while ignoring more relevant issues...

    Because you were absolutely not implying there was an issue of hiring illegals on oil rigs by bringing the topic into the thread...

    You'd just like to know that those oil jobs went to Americans...

    Because there is absolutely no evidence that they aren't...

    I get it. Wait..what?



    Oil companies make record profits.



    Check.

    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  14. #179
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    Re: US Domestic Energy / Energy policy

    [QUOTE=AMDScooter;4509748]
    I get it.
    You don't think anyone is saying that hiring illegals on oil rigs is a problem...
    Good so far...

    You simply don't understand why anyone would wonder why you brought the issue of "American jobs" into the thread while ignoring more relevant issues...
    You were the one who brought the "illegals" nonsense into the thread....not me. I was trying to understand why you would use the logic that you did. It would be similar to you bringing up GE and their lack of taxes and the lack of a liberal response.

    Because you were absolutely not implying there was an issue of hiring illegals on oil rigs by bringing the topic into the thread...
    We're back on track...though again you were the one who brought up illegals when comparing it to oil companies hiring american workers.

    You'd just like to know that those oil jobs went to Americans...
    Yes....

    Because there is absolutely no evidence that they aren't...
    I just wanna know what I'm getting Scoot. I see the things you post about drilling moratoriums and killing jobs and oil rigs moving to south america and it makes me wonder....did any of those oil rigs that moved out cost American jobs? Did it have an effect on our economy that is bigger than say, another oil disaster? Did it cause the price of gas to go up? Are we less energy independent now because oil rigs aren't drilling in the gulf?

    Some of these questions are obviously hard to quantify directly. But because they are so hard to quantify directly, it is kind of difficult for me to take an absolutist position in either direction.

  15. #180
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    Re: US Domestic Energy / Energy policy

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragon24 View Post
    . . .
    You were the one who brought the "illegals" nonsense into the thread....not me.
    . . .
    Really? Let's have a lil walk down revisionist history lane. Because it seems to me I responded to a theme forming in your posts starting here:

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragon24 View Post
    . . .
    Does he have any math to suggest that drilling = American jobs?
    &

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragon24 View Post
    Can anyone prove that more drilling is going to equal American jobs?

    For example....those ten oil rigs that have left the gulf of Mexico....did they fire all of their American employees before they headed off for South America?

    If Obama lifted his supposed illegal moratorium on drilling, would the oil companies hire more American workers to drill?

    Do you have any interest in making sure that the oil companies would hire American workers if they would be drilling off of American shores?
    If you were not suggesting repeatedly those jobs were going to people other than Americans. What the h3ll were you talking about?? Don't hurt yourself trying to spin the next response.

    As to the rest of you post. I've provided quite a bit to support my position in regard to the very questions you are raising again now. It's because those points elicited a "thundering cricket" response from you that your ongoing "American jobs" red herring is getting so much attention.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


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