Jesus Christ never Existed

[william tell]

I would think most if not all have heard the bible referred to as the book of life. It truly is about life and whether you are the faithful or not it explains the human condition very well. Put simply, the old testament deals with the sin of man and what it has lead to. New testament deals with the forgiveness of sin of yourself and others. Revelations, because man is not without sin, what that sin will lead to. I would think that this book is for all to consider the message it lays out to humans.

this message - written by desert people,2011 years ago, lays out the human condition ?
come with me to the book store and I will show you a better book or books
Meridian-I understand evolution quite well - that was not my post citing we are monkey men.
kbohip-Our origins are based in evolution. You are not citing talking snakes are you ?
Phopojijo- trolls upset people - sorry if you are upset - I have broken no rules here.
Palandri- I would encourage that as well, I would also encourage reading the history of religions, the history of deities, Darwinism,The God Delusion,
and take note that 99% of published scientists are atheist. Also take note that of the 4 richest men in the world one is religious and does not believe in social causes but the three that are atheist do- just an interesting fact for those who believe there would be no social help if churches were to stop giving aid -
Invictus-Bible thumpin babes usually do very dirty things- they do indeed
- associating with god is perceived with honesty but only the ignorant gullible get fleeced. Ever see a homeless beggar holding and sign saying he was atheist ?

I wonder why this miracle man whom spoke to people from the heavens suddenly went quiet 2011 years ago and why does it seem if he does so know he whispers to people when they are alone. Hallucinations more likely.

If he has such powers -I mean you all worship the mighty deity - he could clear all of this discontent up with a booming voice heard round the world,
but thats not gonna happen - because there is no one there

I could find fault with every religion - wanna know why ? because their deity left a written accord which is just so utterly ridiculous and false in so many aspects that it cannot be taken seriously.

Are not the flowers beautiful enough without having to believe there are fairies at the bottom of the pot ?

[kbohip]

kbohip-Our origins are based in evolution. You are not citing talking snakes are you ?

I never said I disagreed with you on that. I just said I believed in God. I never mentioned "snakes" anywhere in my post but whatever. Justin, who's also an atheist, makes a FAR better argument than you ever will.

[JustinC939]

this message - written by desert people,2011 years ago, lays out the human condition ?

You question the integrity of the source, but not what it says. Why can't desert people understand the human condition? They were humans, so I would guess that they understood something about the human condition.

kbohip-Our origins are based in evolution. You are not citing talking snakes are you ?

Putting worlds into people's mouths? here is what kbohip said:

As you say, it's a never ending question. I happen to believe in God, but then I wonder where God came from. Who made him? Better yet, who made the deity that made God then, and so on, and so on. None of this is ever going to make any sense and no one will ever know why or how we really got here or even where it is we're really at.
How does this statement in any way relate to talking snakes? It doesn't, he's really taking more of an agnostic stance on the issue than a religious stance. But instead, you want to make him sound like some superstitious religious nut who believes in talking snakes.

Phopojijo- trolls upset people - sorry if you are upset - I have broken no rules here.

It's obvious that you want to rock the boat. That may not be in violation of any rules but people will keep hitting the troll buzzer until the inevitable comes....

Palandri-
and take note that 99% of published scientists are atheist.

So.
99% of people who attend church are theists.

The reason most scientists are non-theists (I doubt that 99% of the are atheists) is not to look cool in front of the other scientists. It is because the study of science debunks religion by it's very nature. I'm not saying there arent theist scientists. Of course there are, but that is generally not with out some sort of unorthodox compromise in your scientific and religious beliefs. And even if every scientist is a non-theist. What does that mean here? How does that help present your argument? It doesn't

Also take note that of the 4 richest men in the world one is religious and does not believe in social causes but the three that are atheist do- just an interesting fact for those who believe there would be no social help if churches were to stop giving aid -

Wow, that some real in depth research you got there! did you make that up yourself? A study based on the religious beliefs of four people and what they do with their money is ridiculous to say the least.

Ever see a homeless beggar holding and sign saying he was atheist ?

Ever see a homeless man say that he didn't believe in purple dragons?

I wonder why this miracle man whom spoke to people from the heavens suddenly went quiet 2011 years ago and why does it seem if he does so know he whispers to people when they are alone. Hallucinations more likely.

If he has such powers -I mean you all worship the mighty deity - he could clear all of this discontent up with a booming voice heard round the world,
but thats not gonna happen - because there is no one there

I could find fault with every religion - wanna know why ? because their deity left a written accord which is just so utterly ridiculous and false in so many aspects that it cannot be taken seriously.

Are not the flowers beautiful enough without having to believe there are fairies at the bottom of the pot ?

I'll admit to having a somewhat of a grudge against religion. But my grudge is limited to those who feel the need to impose their religious beliefs on others. I don't have a grudge against people who wish to privately practice what they believe. But i don't think this is the case for you. You know the base of TLR is, and you knew what would happen when you posted this thread. It took all of one page to derail it from it's original topic.
And the bad part about it that I am an atheist like you. I am on your side! But your argument is so bad that I have to take the offensive to your argument and defend religion.

[Meridian]

I'm sorry, but I need to post this, even though I'm an atheist:






M

[william tell]

Nope no problem with logic,perhaps my mind wanders but no facts are misrepresented and my opinions are defiantly not off base.
No evidence that a Jesus Christ man ever existed.
Perhaps there was a dude who went by the name jesus who was a jewish priest of some sort, He defiantly did not preach to heathens or to claim himself a god, son of god or whatever such nonsense.
I made an error citing kbohip- sorry
The people certainly knew a little about the human condition - I'm saying come with me to library and I can point out a better book/books
The gospels were not written by eyewitnesses
The names attached to the gospels are second century guesses
The accounts of Jesus' crucifixion read like fiction.

Gerd Ludemann, Professor of New Testament Studies at the University of Gottingen:
We can no longer take the statements about the resurrection of Jesus literally...So let us say this quite specifically: the tomb of Jesus was not empty, but full, and his body did not disappear, but rotted away.

Call me a troll all you want yet you are drawn to the thread like bees to honey
I admit that no amount of persuasion or ridicule or factual inconsistencies within the bible or in the history will shake the theists, if it did they would have converted long ago.
What does it say about a person whom believes in the fairy man ?
What does it say about us as a nation, with a 75% or so theist rate?
When you say you believe in a god which of the 250 gods do you believe in or did you simply choose the most popular of your time ?
The history of religions reads like a very ignorant accounting, the bible is no different, sure there may be some truth in it and some actual facts but not one miracle is to be believed

[Pehu]

Gerd Ludemann, Professor of New Testament Studies at the University of Gottingen:
We can no longer take the statements about the resurrection of Jesus literally...So let us say this quite specifically: the tomb of Jesus was not empty, but full, and his body did not disappear, but rotted away.

It seems that you quote Professor Ludemann to claim that Jesus existed after all? I'm confused.

O ye weak in faith !
But really for someone who does not think that a person whose existence is explained pretty much with faith you take an awful lot of time to prove (to yourself?) that he did not exist (and yet you contradict even yourself as mentioned above).You aren't too strong in your own beliefs it seems to me - and you may perhaps be just one step away from becoming a born again Christian!

[william tell]

It seems that you quote Professor Ludemann to claim that Jesus existed after all? I'm confused.

O ye weak in faith !
But really for someone who does not think that a person whose existence is explained pretty much with faith you take an awful lot of time to prove (to yourself?) that he did not exist (and yet you contradict even yourself as mentioned above).You aren't too strong in your own beliefs it seems to me - and you may perhaps be just one step away from becoming a born again Christian!

The professor and I don't think that a MAN was named jesus - we doubt that a person by the name of Jesus -son of god- existed

the name was possibly popular back then

[falcon_view]

William, tell us what it is that you feel the faithful has caused you harm or restricted you in any way or do you feel the people/world would be a better place without faith

[JustinC939]

Nope no problem with logic,perhaps my mind wanders but no facts are misrepresented and my opinions are defiantly not off base.

Are you related to Glenn Beck?

No evidence that a Jesus Christ man ever existed.

Again. WHAT IS THE SOURCE?

Perhaps there was a dude who went by the name jesus who was a jewish priest of some sort. He defiantly did not preach to heathens or to claim himself a god, son of god or whatever such nonsense.

Definitely?! So you were around in the first century C.E.?
First of all the name "Jesus" is a Greek translation from the Hebrew name "Yeshua" which was a common name of the time. And how the hell do you know that nobody in that time period claimed to be the son of god. We have even had people in our time claim to be the son of god, so I'm fairly certain that this has occurred before.

The people certainly knew a little about the human condition - I'm saying come with me to library and I can point out a better book/books
The gospels were not written by eyewitnesses
The names attached to the gospels are second century guesses
The accounts of Jesus' crucifixion read like fiction.

So what are these better books you keep talking about? Who are you to decide which books are better and which are not?

Call me a troll all you want yet you are drawn to the thread like bees to honey
I admit that no amount of persuasion or ridicule or factual inconsistencies within the bible or in the history will shake the theists, if it did they would have converted long ago.
What does it say about a person whom believes in the fairy man ?
What does it say about us as a nation, with a 75% or so theist rate?
When you say you believe in a god which of the 250 gods do you believe in or did you simply choose the most popular of your time ?
The history of religions reads like a very ignorant accounting, the bible is no different, sure there may be some truth in it and some actual facts but not one miracle is to be believed

[Invictus]

Those questions cannot be answered by evolution. Quantum physics explains that.

The field of quantum physics does not address all the problems. And at our current time can only offer competing theories for the questions it can address. If something unproven and untested can be taken by as fact by you. Then your type of faith is not all the different from a religious person.




Im not in support of one theory of creation over another. My whole point is. I dont know where we came from. And unless there is some amazing scientific break through that you guys know that that the rest of us dont. Then the certainty of your convictions is just plain foolish. Obviously the earth wasnt created in 6 days, but to say that science has it figured out just shows how arrogant we humans can be. We just started flying 100 years ago, now suddenly we understand the workings of a universe we haven't even been able to explore yet. This is just faith in science instead of a God.



* Edit* And i forgot to add

The whole argument of Jesus divinity is pointless. According to HIM, he was here to show you how to worship God and how to live your life. He did not command anyone to worship him. He called himself the Son of Man, this alone should answer the question of his divinity.

The fact that most major religions recognize that jesus existed weather the believe in his actual divinity should also add creedence to his actual existence. Though im sure the accountings of his actions have been greatly exaggerated as most stories that start off as verbal a recounting do.

Either way i cant prove 100% one way or the other. And like i said before such certainty of things is foolish.

[JustinC939]

The field of quantum physics does not address all the problems. And at our current time can only offer competing theories for the questions it can address. If something unproven and untested can be taken by as fact by you. Then your type of faith is not all the different from a religious person.

A belief in science is not a faith and is entirely different from religion. Science is a methodology that has a track record of success of producing models of predictive utility about reality. The Big Bang Theory (introduced 100 years ago) which made predictions such as the cosmic microwave background which was tested and discovered in 1964. Science is so successful that it has no rival and no other methodology can compete with it in terms of it's ability to deliver the goods. From every hard drive that spins to every satellite that is launched into space; all of the technology that we use today is possible by way of scientific discovery. That is the measure of the success of science. Where is the measure of success of religion? Does the bible contain knowledge to cure diseases? Are there any religious texts that can successfully predict anything without the use of vague and cryptic writings? No. Religion has a poor track record in predictive capability.
And even quantum physics as sketchy as it may be is a far more successful methodology than religion just for the fact that it can produce predictive models.
So science may not explain everything (yet), but it has made more progress, and produced far greater results than religion ever will.

[william tell]

Are you related to Glenn Beck?

Again. WHAT IS THE SOURCE?

Definitely?! So you were around in the first century C.E.?
First of all the name "Jesus" is a Greek translation from the Hebrew name "Yeshua" which was a common name of the time. And how the hell do you know that nobody in that time period claimed to be the son of god. We have even had people in our time claim to be the son of god, so I'm fairly certain that this has occurred before.

So what are these better books you keep talking about? Who are you to decide which books are better and which are not?

You grasp at humor but miss the mark

If "Yeshua" ( yes I am familiar with the term but for simplicity's sake) was a priest, he most likely worshiped Mithra's which was the prevailing deity of the period. In fact many attributes associated with Mithra have been attributed to "Jesus"

Here is a paste from a scholar

Mithras was born of a virgin who was given the title of "Mother of God"
Mithras was born on December 25. Before Constantine (a follower of Mithras) changed the date, the birth date Yeshua's followers observed was January 6. However, Yeshua's birth, based on the descriptions, would actually have been in the spring.
Mithras was born in a cave (stable), and his birth was attended by shepherds bearing gifts.
Mithras was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
Mithras had 12 companions or disciples.
Mithras performed miracles.
Mithras' followers were baptized.
Mithras suffered to bring salvation to a sin-cursed humankind.
Mithras was buried in a tomb and rose after three days. (Yeshua rose after a day and a half, but the gospel accounts used the three days to fit with Mithras' story, in spite of the obvious disparity in the timeline.)
Mithras' resurrection was celebrated every year.
Mithras ascended into heaven after finishing his deeds.
Mithras' followers were promised immortality.
Mithras was called “the good shepherd” and identified with both the lamb and the lion.
Mithras was called the “way, the truth and the light,” " logos,” "word," “redeemer,” “savior” and “messiah.”
On the Judgment Day, Mithras would use the keys of heaven to unlock the gates of Paradise to receive the faithful. All the unbaptized living and dead would perish.
Mithra's sacred day was Sunday, called the “Lord’s day” because Mithraism was a sun religion. Yeshua's sacred day was changed from the Jewish Sabbath, Saturday, to match Mithras' day.
Mithras had his principal festival on the day that was later to become Easter for Christians.
Mithras' religion had a Eucharist or “Lord’s Supper,” at which Mithras said, “He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved.”
On a final day of judgment, the dead would resurrect and in a final conflict, the existing order would be destroyed and light would triumph over darkness.

Since all of these characteristics of Mithras predated Yeshua by fourteen hundred years, Mithraism could not have copied the Yeshua story; it had to be the reverse. These details about Yeshua were not in the earliest sources. They appeared later.

[william tell]

If one follows the succession of deities and the beliefs attributed to them you begin to see how we arrived at the here and now

So- sorry - No Miracle Man, No Deity -just a long line of the faithfully ignorant and many who have made millions off them and many still more whom have lost their life due to their faith which continues today

So yes - I think the world would be a much nicer and safer place without belief in a deity - man is inherently moral, religion did not start it.

To quote another Atheist- Are they willfully ignorant or just stupid ?

[JustinC939]

Mithras was born of a virgin who was given the title of "Mother of God"
Mithras was born on December 25. Before Constantine (a follower of Mithras) changed the date, the birth date Yeshua's followers observed was January 6. However, Yeshua's birth, based on the descriptions, would actually have been in the spring.
Mithras was born in a cave (stable), and his birth was attended by shepherds bearing gifts.
Mithras was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
Mithras had 12 companions or disciples.
Mithras performed miracles.
Mithras' followers were baptized.
Mithras suffered to bring salvation to a sin-cursed humankind.
Mithras was buried in a tomb and rose after three days. (Yeshua rose after a day and a half, but the gospel accounts used the three days to fit with Mithras' story, in spite of the obvious disparity in the timeline.)
Mithras' resurrection was celebrated every year.
Mithras ascended into heaven after finishing his deeds.
Mithras' followers were promised immortality.
Mithras was called “the good shepherd” and identified with both the lamb and the lion.
Mithras was called the “way, the truth and the light,” " logos,” "word," “redeemer,” “savior” and “messiah.”
On the Judgment Day, Mithras would use the keys of heaven to unlock the gates of Paradise to receive the faithful. All the unbaptized living and dead would perish.
Mithra's sacred day was Sunday, called the “Lord’s day” because Mithraism was a sun religion. Yeshua's sacred day was changed from the Jewish Sabbath, Saturday, to match Mithras' day.
Mithras had his principal festival on the day that was later to become Easter for Christians.
Mithras' religion had a Eucharist or “Lord’s Supper,” at which Mithras said, “He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved.”
On a final day of judgment, the dead would resurrect and in a final conflict, the existing order would be destroyed and light would triumph over darkness.

Since all of these characteristics of Mithras predated Yeshua by fourteen hundred years, Mithraism could not have copied the Yeshua story; it had to be the reverse. These details about Yeshua were not in the earliest sources. They appeared later.

Ok, I'm sure anybody can draw a number of similarities of modern religions s to older religious beliefs. I know that modern christianity is just a reboot paganism. But none of this proves whether or not Jesus Christ existed or whether he claimed to be the son of god. Maybe Jesus knew of Mithras and decided to see if Mithras' story would play out in his time. Maybe Jesus was ordinary man preaching his message and the the council on nicea decided to rewrite history and make him into what they wanted him to be.
The history of the times of Christ has be re written, altered, and mis-translated so many times that it impossible to know what really transpired in those days. My opinion is that Yeshua being a common name of the time; and roaming prophets also were also common. And I'm pretty sure that David Koresh is not the only man who claimed to be the son of god. I would say that it is fairly likely that a guy by the name of Yeshua who was a prophet claiming to be the son of god who was crucified by order of Pilate. I can accept the Jesus Myth Theory to the point of saying that Jesus did not exist as stated in the bible. But I don't accept the theory when it just flat out says Jesus didn't exist because chances are, a prophet by that name probably did exist in that time period. It would be like saying that there was no "Samuel the Blacksmith" fixing wagons in 1860.

[Frank1946]

It would be like saying that there was no "Samuel the Blacksmith" fixing wagons in 1860.

Yes there was a Samuel the Blacksmith in 1860. Look down the alphabetical list to:

Hittel, Samuel, blacksmith


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