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  1. #16
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    Re: Unions Federal, State & whats left of the private sector...

    Actually it was pretty common knowledge where the Wisconsin Dems went yesterday, and it's just a few short miles as the crow flies from my office. It wasn't real tough to figure out, either.

    1) From Madison, where is the nearest state border?
    2) On the other side of that border, is anything remotely interesting happening at a reasonably nice place to stay?

    Answer? LOL, I'm serious

    FWIW, they also have an indoor waterpark. Too bad we're the ones getting hosed.

  2. #17
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    Re: Unions Federal, State & whats left of the private sector...

    Saw this and had to post it.

    Are you sick of high paid teachers? Teachers’ hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or 10 months a year! It’s time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do - baby sit! We can get that for less than minimum wage.

    That’s right. Let’s give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM
    with 45 min. off for lunch and plan — that equals 6 1/2 hours).

    Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children.

    Now how many do they teach in day…maybe 30? So that’s $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day. However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations.

    LET’S SEE…. That’s $585 X 180= $105,300 peryear. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).

    What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master’s degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children
    X 180 days = $280,800 per year.

    Wait a minute — there’s something wrong here! There sure is!

    The average teacher’s salary (nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days = $277.77/per day/30 students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student–a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your
    kids!)

    WHAT A DEAL!!!!

    I wish I wrote this but I didn’t. This was sent to me by one of the teachers in my school. It sure does put things into perspective…What you guys think?

    *Disclaimer* I’m a teacher.
    Fox News watchers are less informed - The Proof

    I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government in a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.
    - Thomas Jefferson

  3. #18
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    Re: Unions Federal, State & whats left of the private sector...

    ^^^ Let's do away with tenure to boot. Cuz.. you know.. if I dun like my sitter I can fire them. Not-so-much for some tenured/unionized POS that ain't doing their job.

    Also.. lets do away with pooblic schools altogether. Seeing as the voucher system has shown the free market system does a better job for less.

    I'd be all for it! Let's have these teachers compete for jobs like everyone else in the country does and be salaried on results as well.

    And that's the short list...

    No surprise the above was written by a teacher... the short sightedness of the position gives it away immediately.

    Kids Aren't Cars and Our Schools Should Not Be Dropout Factories

    ^^ Good watch..
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  4. #19
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    Re: Unions Federal, State & whats left of the private sector...

    Wisconsin's budget was balanced until last month, when Walker and his GOP cronies rammed through a $117M corporate tax break. This bill eliminates all collective baragaining except for wages (and limits wage increases to inflation), eliminates union dues withholding, mandates annual union recertification votes and mandatory decertification of unions if they ever get less than 50% of the vote. (As an aside, what sane person would be belong to a union that must operate under those rules?)

    This bill is everything about union busting. The so-called fiscal crisis is a manufactured pretense-manufactured by last month's GOP approved tax slash.

    Good old GOP, new face, same old deficit creating tax breaks and union busting.
    Fox News watchers are less informed - The Proof

    I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government in a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.
    - Thomas Jefferson

  5. #20
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    Re: Unions Federal, State & whats left of the private sector...

    As a citizen of the state, I can tell you with certainty that our budget has not been "balanced" for some time, at least not in a way that any normal person would need to balance their personal budget. And to be clear, as with our national level, both parties have been ramping up spending in good times and bad for many, many years.

    Whether it was selling our share of the tobacco settlement for pennies on the dollar (Republican in the seat) or forcing furlough days onto state workers (Democrat in the seat), they've been engaging in all manner of tricks to cook the books into a semblence of "balanced".

    The temporary shortfall is one thing, and even as a decidedly anti-union guy myself, the thing the governor should focus on today. Make no mistake, I'd like to see the unions gutted, but they've got plenty of time to take them down piece by piece. This not only comes across as less draconian, it legitimately offers those affected greater time to plan and adjust. As one who survived a large corporate bankruptcy, I can understand the benefit of forewarning.

    As is, Walker is alienating far more people than public union members. It doesn't help that he excluded the three public unions that backed his election bid last fall. Talk about blatant good-ol-boy mentality. Much remains to be seen, but I wager the net impact on the next election will be negative for the Republicans and it need not be so. It's as if we have spoiled children running our government. . .

  6. #21
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    Re: Unions Federal, State & whats left of the private sector...

    Quote Originally Posted by liteman View Post
    Wisconsin's budget was balanced until last month, when Walker and his GOP cronies rammed through a $117M corporate tax break. This bill eliminates all collective baragaining except for wages (and limits wage increases to inflation), eliminates union dues withholding, mandates annual union recertification votes and mandatory decertification of unions if they ever get less than 50% of the vote. (As an aside, what sane person would be belong to a union that must operate under those rules?)

    This bill is everything about union busting. The so-called fiscal crisis is a manufactured pretense-manufactured by last month's GOP approved tax slash.

    Good old GOP, new face, same old deficit creating tax breaks and union busting.
    It's such a shame when people can keep their monies instead of having it taken away from them for the benefit of the unions. At least criminals who hold up their victims at gunpoint are honest about what they are up to.

    I love the mindset that tax breaks "cost" monay. Someday maybe a few of your teacher pals can explain how not getting money that was not theirs to begin with is a net loss. But first... can u get them to stop by the white house and put together a good response so their post turtle can explain to the rest of us non-union/teacher types how his budget that adds over $7 Trillion to the deficit in the next 10 years actually reduces the deficit.


    As far as union busting.. I'm all for it. The sooner the better. Unions should be banned from the public sector altogether IMHO.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  7. #22
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    Re: Unions Federal, State & whats left of the private sector...

    Encouraging poll.. nice to see if Rassy and Gallup would pick up similar polling.

    Poll: Public unions a hard sell

    A new poll from the Washington-based Clarus Group asked:

    Do you think government employees should be represented by labor unions that bargain for higher pay, benefits and pensions ... or do you think government employees should not be represented by labor unions?
    A full 64% of the respondents said "no."

    That includes 42% of Democrats, and an overwhelming majority of Republicans. Only 49% of Democrats think public workers should be in unions at all.

    That's on the fundamental right to organize, before you get to wages and benefits. And that puts Scott Walker in a pretty good political place.

    (According to the release, this was a national survey of 1,001 registered voters. One note: Clarus is a division of the global corporate public relations giant Qorvis, not exactly a labor bastion.)
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  8. #23
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    Re: Unions Federal, State & whats left of the private sector...

    Quote Originally Posted by JustinC939 View Post
    Well good for him. But if he had received that retirement package in the form of a wage that he could use to invest in his own retirement fund in lieu of his retirement package; would you consider it paying someone to be retired when he really earned that retirement?
    It really puzzles me how every conservative will gripe about a middle class guy earning a decent living, but has no problem with the top 2% paying less in taxes than the rest of us.

    I worked in a non-union workplace for almost 9 years. And in that time span, I watched our benefits and perks go out the window as company as profits actually went up. The management basically looted that place until it closed. One of the GMs actually went to jail for taking kickbacks from steel suppliers.
    I'm not saying that a union would flat out prevent corporate corruption, but it would prevent corporations from looting their employees to some degree.
    And even aside from wages and benefits, unions are there to ensure fair treatment, fair pay, equal opportunity, and a safe workplace for all employees along because you simply cannot count on an employer to do any of these things voluntarily.
    I'm only part of a small union, and I understand that the big unions are also corrupt. Working in the auto industry for as long as I have. I've had the opportunity to visit some GM and Chrysler plants, and those guys have it made. They are both overstaffed and over paid. The UAW would turn a one man operation would turn into a 10 man operation, and pay them all $80,000 a year. That is unreasonable. You can't expect to make vehicles affordable to people making $40,000/year when your employees make $80,000/year.
    Anybody who has had a taste of factory work would understand and appreciate the fact that we have things like Unions, OSHA, workers compensation. And I think it's entirely unfair to call out the unions as being the job killers in this country when corporate fat cats do just the same. And it's really funny how people conveniently forget all about NAFTA.
    Quote Originally Posted by liteman View Post
    What about the CEO's who don't even retire, but upon leaving a company, get a gigantic golden parachute. Who do you think pays for those?

    I've worked in a union job before and I've had to work where I have used union labor and non-union labor. The union laborer's knew their job and got it done quickly with little oversight from me. The non-union laborer's I constantly had to answer questions and stay on top of every move they made and took twice as long to get the job done.

    Cuts have to be made and TAXES must be raised to get out of the troubles this country is facing now. But you'll never make it with just one of these.

    But the middle class is being asked to make all the sacrifices while the rich sit back and enjoy their tax cut extensions and record wealth increases. It just doesn't seem fair, nor what the founding fathers probably would've wanted.
    You'll definitely get no argument from me regarding ridiculously overpaid CEO's. It's a crime what some of them get away with imo. My point about my brother-in-law turning down an 85% payout for the rest of his life still stands though. How many more are there out there just like him drawing a paycheck every month to be retired? Sure, it's great for them and I don't blame them one bit for taking advantage of it, but how long can the taxpayers continue to support this growing situation? Not all of us can have government jobs.
    Not a GoodWhite.

  9. #24
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    Re: Unions Federal, State & whats left of the private sector...

    Quote Originally Posted by kbohip View Post
    You'll definitely get no argument from me regarding ridiculously overpaid CEO's. It's a crime what some of them get away with imo. My point about my brother-in-law turning down an 85% payout for the rest of his life still stands though. How many more are there out there just like him drawing a paycheck every month to be retired? Sure, it's great for them and I don't blame them one bit for taking advantage of it, but how long can the taxpayers continue to support this growing situation? Not all of us can have government jobs.
    IMHO the weakness of the pro union position shows when they nearly universally bring up CEO salaries as a defense. The position fails on 2 levels.

    1) As if conservatives defend the CEO salaries. I'd like to see the examples where we have.

    2) They show exactly how outrageous UNION salaries and benefits are by continually trotting out the CEO salaries as a tit-4-tat response.

    FAIL.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  10. #25
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    Re: Unions Federal, State & whats left of the private sector...

    Quote Originally Posted by liteman View Post
    Wisconsin's budget was balanced until last month, when Walker and his GOP cronies rammed through a $117M corporate tax break.
    Incorrect. Walker's predecessor left office with a $3.3 billion deficit.

    Quote Originally Posted by liteman View Post
    This bill eliminates all collective baragaining except for wages (and limits wage increases to inflation)
    There is no constitutional right, either in the Wisconsin Constitution or US Constitution, that guarentees public employees the right to collective bargining. The right to collectively bargin is NOT a inalienable right recongized by the United Nations. The Wisconsin State Legislature awarded teachers the right to negotiate under a Collective Bargining Agreement in Statute 111.70 of the Wisconsin State Law. The Wisconsin State Legislature gave this right to the teachers, and they can legally take it away. In Virginia or North Carolina, it is illegal for government employees to collectively bargain.

    Quote Originally Posted by liteman View Post
    eliminates union dues withholding, mandates annual union recertification votes and mandatory decertification of unions if they ever get less than 50% of the vote. (As an aside, what sane person would be belong to a union that must operate under those rules?)
    You're right. I don't know what sane person would belong to a union. Unions are just as corrupt and greedy as the worst corporations. Why anybody belongs to a union is beyond me.

    Quote Originally Posted by liteman View Post
    This bill is everything about union busting.
    You say union busting like it's a bad thing.
    Last edited by Keven; 02-18-2011 at 06:45 PM.

  11. #26
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    Re: Unions Federal, State & whats left of the private sector...

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter View Post
    IMHO the weakness of the pro union position shows when they nearly universally bring up CEO salaries as a defense. The position fails on 2 levels.

    1) As if conservatives defend the CEO salaries. I'd like to see the examples where we have.

    2) They show exactly how outrageous UNION salaries and benefits are by continually trotting out the CEO salaries as a tit-4-tat response.

    FAIL.
    It's being reported here in WI on local talk radio that Mary Bell - head of WEAC (Wisconsin Teacher's Union) made $500,000 last year.

    Nice work if you can get it.

  12. #27
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    Re: Unions Federal, State & whats left of the private sector...

    So basically,

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter View Post
    Class warfare my arse. Geesus that canard is so beat to death.
    blah blah,
    You also won't see me shedding any tears for the union stooge who makes $80K a year working on an assembly line who just got shown the door because his job just got shipped overseas.
    See this would be an example for the cognitive dissonance thread.

    Those union stooges making 80K make up a tremendous amount of America's workforce. So you are just cool with their jobs getting shipped overseas because you think they make too much? Sheesh. No class warfare there Scoot. Shall we even begin to discuss the fallout?....even higher unemployment, higher foreclosure rates, less jobs....you and the repubs gonna take the blame for that fallout that will further weaken our middle class or are you going to conveniently pin it on Obama like you do everything else

  13. #28
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    Re: Unions Federal, State & whats left of the private sector...

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragon24 View Post
    So basically,



    blah blah,
    Well maybe you should stuff a sock in it next time you wanna get up on yer soapbox with the "Its soul-less, heart-less, and immoral" crap if reality ain't yer gig.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragon24 View Post
    See this would be an example for the cognitive dissonance thread.
    You are absolutely correct... except you are the one suffering from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragon24 View Post
    Those union stooges making 80K make up a tremendous amount of America's workforce. So you are just cool with their jobs getting shipped overseas because you think they make too much? Sheesh. No class warfare there Scoot. Shall we even begin to discuss the fallout?....even higher unemployment, higher foreclosure rates, less jobs....you and the repubs gonna take the blame for that fallout that will further weaken our middle class or are you going to conveniently pin it on Obama like you do everything else
    They reap what they sow. The unions they support along with the politicians they help put into office are doing nothing but making their labor too expensive for anyone. That ain't "class warfare". It's an economic reality. And it's not my fault for pointing it out... go thank a union.

    Yes.. lets discuss the "fallout". Local and state agencies running in the black.. people earning realistic wages and benefits for the jobs they do. Ya..what a freakin' nightmare scenario that'd be.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  14. #29
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    Re: Unions Federal, State & whats left of the private sector...

    God...

    The Madison local school board filed an injunction against the Madison teachers union to force the teachers to return to work on Monday, calling the "sick days" and the movements at the State Capital an illegal strike action. But, it's been denied by a judge:

    http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/loc...cc4c03286.html

    Dane County Circuit Court Judge Maryann Sumi denied a Madison School District request to force teachers back into the schools.

    But a lawyer for Madison Teachers Inc., the local teachers union, said in court teachers will return to school Tuesday.

    The district late Friday filed for a temporary restraining order to bar teachers from taking part in any further work stoppages such as teacher demonstrations that have closed schools three days this week.

    The filing characterizes the work stoppage as an illegal strike. Strikes by teachers are prohibited by state law.

    But Sumi denied the district's request, saying the district would not likely not prevail. She also said the three-day work stoppage was not a strike.

    Lester Pines, a lawyer for MTI, said teachers would return to school on Tuesday.

    The school calendar shows Monday as a regularly scheduled day for classes, but it's a furlough day for some state workers.
    Those of us who follow Wisconsin politics know that Judge Sumi is a huge liberal.

    The teacher activism at the State House has become teachers from all over the state, college students from the University of Wisconsin-Madison (VERY liberal school, look at went on there during Vietnam, it's basically the Berkeley of the Midwest) and other union activists. But the teachers from the Madison school district were the first to call in sick and started this whole thing.

    I guess some are saying that this legally isn't a strike because the school districts are cancelling school after 40-60% of the teachers call in sick. If the school board cancels school, it isn't a strike.

    Anyway, Walker won't back down on this. I've followed his career since he was a State Representative, County Executive and now Governor. He's a fiscal conservative in the strictest sense of the word and he has received political attacks like this before.

    If anything, some moderate Republicans in the State Senate will back down. One of them from Racine is married to a teacher and he's already said he's "conflicted" by the bill. He says he'll vote for it now, but he's definitely got the possibility of switching sides on this.

  15. #30
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    Re: Unions Federal, State & whats left of the private sector...

    Quote Originally Posted by Keven View Post
    God...

    The Madison local school board filed an injunction against the Madison teachers union to force the teachers to return to work on Monday, calling the "sick days" and the movements at the State Capital an illegal strike action. But, it's been denied by a judge:

    http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/loc...cc4c03286.html



    Those of us who follow Wisconsin politics know that Judge Sumi is a huge liberal.

    The teacher activism at the State House has become teachers from all over the state, college students from the University of Wisconsin-Madison (VERY liberal school, look at went on there during Vietnam, it's basically the Berkeley of the Midwest) and other union activists. But the teachers from the Madison school district were the first to call in sick and started this whole thing.

    I guess some are saying that this legally isn't a strike because the school districts are cancelling school after 40-60% of the teachers call in sick. If the school board cancels school, it isn't a strike.

    Anyway, Walker won't back down on this. I've followed his career since he was a State Representative, County Executive and now Governor. He's a fiscal conservative in the strictest sense of the word and he has received political attacks like this before.

    If anything, some moderate Republicans in the State Senate will back down. One of them from Racine is married to a teacher and he's already said he's "conflicted" by the bill. He says he'll vote for it now, but he's definitely got the possibility of switching sides on this.
    Hi Keven,

    If I haven't said it before, welcome to TLR and thanks for posting here. I'll be following closely what you have to say on this issue given your location

    Cheers

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