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  1. #166
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    Re: Gay Marriage/Gay Rights/Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phopojijo View Post
    And what if the majority of people decided that guns should be banned?
    Then they would be banned. If enough people wanted too, we could pass a constitutional amendment overturning the 2nd Amendment.

    Government is "for the people, by the people" after all.

    I differ from my conservative buds here in that I am pro-gay marriage, but you can't deny that gay marriage and civil unions have been overwhelmingly unpopular with the silent majority in the United States.

    It's like the Ron Paul thing. The people who are in favor of gay marriage the ones who are blowing the horns the loudest.

  2. #167
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    Re: Gay Marriage/Gay Rights/Etc.

    I think you could tell that was not the point I was going for.

    The line after the one you quoted was my semi-subtle way of saying: "Get your crotch out of other people's lives if it does not actually affect anyone but them".
    Last edited by Phopojijo; 05-09-2012 at 02:30 AM.

  3. #168
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    Re: Gay Marriage/Gay Rights/Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phopojijo View Post
    I think you could tell that was not the point I was going for.

    The line after the one you quoted was my semi-subtle way of saying: "Get your crotch out of other people's lives if it does not actually affect anyone but them".
    No, dutch was saying that it's pretty clear that most people in America don't want gay marriage.

    You said, "What if a majority of people didn't want guns?"

    Then, we would pass a new amendment banning guns or whatever.

    I know you were trying to be cute. Everything conservatives are against something or want to ban something, lefties always bring back the second amendment. Probably because it's the only thing the left thinks should be banned that the right cares about.

    Other than full-size SUVs and the Ten Commandments in school.

    Zing. I'll be here all week.

    I'll channel Lincoln again. Government is of people, for the people, by the people. Government is us. If 95% of Americans wanted gay marriage, it would become law in a heartbeat.

  4. #169
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    Re: Gay Marriage/Gay Rights/Etc.

    Like speeding or parking tickets. Those were abolished in a heartbeat because of public opinion.

    ...

    Well, guess I've been forced to make an argument.

    The problem is that it is an issue that does not affect the majority of Americans even though a majority of Americans voice their opinion on it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_...#Polls_in_2012

    Annnnnnnd often the majority is in favour of gay marriage.

    It is often the (slight) minority that dislikes gay marriage actually... unfortunately the ones who get off their butts and does something about it are usually directly involved or are sticking their crotches in other people's business. That is really difficult for issues involving minorities. And even then, they have no right to as it in no way violates them.

    So -- no. Your point is not valid. Nice try at Devil's Advocate though.
    Last edited by Phopojijo; 05-09-2012 at 04:35 AM.

  5. #170
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    Re: Gay Marriage/Gay Rights/Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phopojijo View Post
    Like speeding or parking tickets. Those were abolished in a heartbeat because of public opinion.
    That's different. Traffic tickets subsidize local government. So no local government is going to outlaw them. People hate federal income taxes but the current government is never going to vote to outlaw them. When money is involved it becomes different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phopojijo View Post
    The problem is that it is an issue that does not affect the majority of Americans even though a majority of Americans voice their opinion on it.
    *shrug* So? How many men are for or against abortion? How many people who aren't in the military supported or opposed the war in Iraq? How many poor people have opinions on how much taxes the rich should pay? We can play this game all day, and it's a slippery slope.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phopojijo View Post
    Annnnnnnd often the majority is in favour of gay marriage.
    You can quote polls all day, but gay marriage has been banned in every single state-wide vote in this country including liberal California.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phopojijo View Post
    It is often the (slight) minority that dislikes gay marriage actually... unfortunately the ones who get off their butts and does something about it are usually directly involved or are sticking their crotches in other people's business.
    See above. It's pretty clear to me that the deciding 5% of Americans who would sway elections in favor of same-sex marriage say one thing to the Gallup pollster on the telephone, but then vote against gay marriage in the voting booth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phopojijo View Post
    That is really difficult for issues involving minorities.
    Seems to me that the Democratic party is pretty good at getting minorities off their butts when Republicans want to reform Social Security/Medicare.

    Black people are totally apathetic to negative on gay issues though. Which is interesting. I had a gay friend in college who had a side job *ahem* distributing a certain green plant that some people may smoke for enjoyment. He said that black people were extremely homophobic. At least the ones he dealt with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phopojijo View Post
    So -- no. Your point is not valid. Nice try at Devil's Advocate though.
    No, my point is valid. If 95% of voting Americans approved of gay marriage, it would become law tomorrow. People on our side have to understand that Middle America is still opposed to gay marriage, marginally.

  6. #171
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    Re: Gay Marriage/Gay Rights/Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phopojijo View Post

    The problem is that it is an issue that does not affect the majority of Americans even though a majority of Americans voice their opinion on it.
    I don't understand how something that goes against someone's belief system doesn't affect them. Maybe you could explain that.

    To be clear... I think civil unions with full legal protections is the answer. For me, the idea that gays should have marriages "like everyone else" is just noise.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_...#Polls_in_2012

    Annnnnnnd often the majority is in favour of gay marriage.
    Like Keven pointed out, when its put to a vote, that's never been the case. Until we legislate according to polls published in Wikipedia, maybe we ought to put more weight on actual polling rather than misrepresented Gallop polls.

    Edit: 32 times it was put to voters and failed every time. I think that's why they did what they did in North Carolina... they don't want it to keep coming back as an issue.
    Last edited by Dutchcedar; 05-09-2012 at 02:25 PM.

  7. #172
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    Re: Gay Marriage/Gay Rights/Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchcedar View Post
    I don't understand how something that goes against someone's belief system it doesn't affect them. Maybe you could explain that.

    To be clear... I think civil unions with full legal protections is the answer. For me, the idea that gays should have marriages "like everyone else" is just noise.
    I kind of agree with you, but then again I think: Why should the government define marriage at all? Perhaps the government should see all 'marriages' as civil unions and simply leave out every other definition as defined by the government. Talking about belief systems does have a lot to do with it, but I'd think there is freedom of religion in the United States, so I don't see the relevance when it comes to issues controlled by the government.

  8. #173
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    Re: Gay Marriage/Gay Rights/Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchcedar View Post
    Edit: 32 times it was put to voters and failed every time. I think that's why they did what they did in North Carolina... they don't want it to keep coming back as an issue.
    You're right on that issue, just not why you think you are.

  9. #174
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    Re: Gay Marriage/Gay Rights/Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phopojijo View Post
    You're right on that issue, just not why you think you are.
    Yeah, whatever.

    Maybe you could answer the simple question posed to you instead of being vapid here.

  10. #175
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    Re: Gay Marriage/Gay Rights/Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pehu View Post
    I kind of agree with you, but then again I think: Why should the government define marriage at all?
    The simple answer is that it has tax consequences. But maybe not. I wonder if we had an income tax system before the government had its definition of marriage. I just don't know.

  11. #176
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    Re: Gay Marriage/Gay Rights/Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchcedar View Post
    Yeah, whatever.

    Maybe you could answer the simple question posed to you instead of being vapid here.
    I don't see a non-rhetorical (very rhetorical) question...? Which one?

  12. #177
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    Re: Gay Marriage/Gay Rights/Etc.

    ^^^ Whoosh...

    The sound of the obvious flying over your head.

  13. #178
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    Re: Gay Marriage/Gay Rights/Etc.

    President Obama just went on ABC News and told Robin Roberts that he supports same-sex marriage.

  14. #179
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    Re: Gay Marriage/Gay Rights/Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchcedar View Post
    Maybe you could answer the simple question posed to you instead of being vapid here.
    Vapid! Nice word!

  15. #180
    Joined
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    California
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    26,255

    Re: Gay Marriage/Gay Rights/Etc.

    Onion nails it...

    Obama Blasts Obama's Evasive Stance On Gay Marriage
    'The President Needs To Come Clean On His Views,' Obama Says


    WASHINGTON—President Barack Obama lashed out at President Barack Obama's seemingly evasive stance on gay marriage Tuesday, calling the head-of-state's cagey position on the issue both "cowardly" and "an example of failed leadership."

    Speaking to reporters from the White House East Room, Obama said that he has had enough of the president's endless hedging on same-sex marriage and that, as president of the United States, he can't just sit back and take a passive position on what he called the "most important civil rights issue of our time."

    "President Obama's inability to simply state whether he's for or against gay marriage is unacceptable," Obama said during a spirited 30-minute address in which he sharply criticized the president for failing time and again to articulate his beliefs. "This nonsense where he says his views are 'evolving' isn't going to cut it anymore. It's patronizing and it's wrong."

    "Mr. President," the president continued, "I am waiting for your answer. We all are."

    Yesterday's speech comes on the heels of Vice President Joe Biden's recent announcement in support of same-sex marriage, an announcement Obama praised Tuesday, saying he was pleased "someone in the Obama administration was finally brave enough to take a clear-cut stand."

    Throughout his remarks, Obama repeatedly questioned Obama's stance on gay rights, calling the president out for trying to play both sides of the issue by simultaneously voicing his support for gay rights yet consistently stopping short of endorsing gay marriage.

    Obama went so far as to call the president's position "incoherent," and questioned how Obama could adamantly support the legalization of same-sex marriage on a state level but not a federal one.

    "Tell me, how does that make any sense?" Obama said. "The truth is, it doesn't. I don't have a clue what the president means when he says things like that, and quite frankly, I don't think he does, either."

    Though President Obama has yet to respond to Obama's remarks, Beltway insiders said the increased pressure from the White House has, in effect, put Obama on notice. Sources confirmed that by using the power of the presidency, Obama is ostensibly forcing Obama to make a decision sooner rather than later.

    "When the president addresses you directly, you can't ignore him," NBC White House correspondent Kristen Welker said. "I think what we can take away from today's remarks is that the president is genuinely frustrated, not just with Obama the president, but Obama the man. The section in his speech where he questioned how, as the first black president, Obama could fail to fight for the equal rights of gays and lesbians was particularly powerful."

    While Obama praised Obama for repealing Don't Ask, Don't Tell and extending hospital visitation rights to same-sex partners, Obama said the president's convoluted stance on gay marriage has less to do with the president wrestling with his moral convictions, and more to do with winning a second term in office.

    During his address, Obama chastised the president for playing political games with the lives of homosexuals, saying that because Obama is convinced gays and lesbians will vote for him regardless of whether or not he makes a definitive decision, there is essentially no reason to make an announcement that could potentially hurt him with independents and conservative Democrats.

    "You can't accuse President Obama of not being a shrewd politician," the president said. "But people aren't looking for a politician right now. They are looking for a leader. They are looking for the man they thought they elected to put politics aside and make the right decision."

    "Personally, I think he's definitely for gay marriage," Obama continued. "I just think he's too afraid to say it."


    Get used to it. I predict we're going to see a helluva lot more candidate Bamma vs. incumbent bamma in the next few months.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


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