Should "Green/alternative" energy loans and subsidies continue?

[Activate: AMD]

Sorry, Scoot, but here comes more largely off-topic. . .



When painting with a broad brush, I guess that's what happens. The "nothing of intrinsic value" statement was immediately followed with somthing along the lines of "things that benefit society in general".

With specific regards to NASA and DARPA, those organizations have been, IMHO, incredible nurseries for technological development. They're also not-for-profit, don't issue stock, and don't bring ideas to commercial fruition. Without question the money invested into each has created the basis for myriad commercial successes, and ignoring bloat / waste in each they are a significant reason why I support "reasonable" government investment in not-for-profit R&D adventures.

Allowing government to get tied up with for-profit businesses strikes me as fraught with pitfalls. How you can keep this from morphing into the government choosing winners from losers, even if only sporadically, escapes me. The "too big too fail" argument is one unlikely to be settled objectively, but for my part it certainly is not a slam-dunk in the favor of government with respect to GM, Chrysler, and the banking industry. In keeping with my penchant for generalities, I see the banking fat cats are still fat, GM isn't worth what we put into it, and we've got an atmosphere of uncertainty that has corporations sitting on their hands (and coffers full of cash).

The size of the problems are enormous enough that there is no shortage of blame for either political party, and I do not dismiss the situation that existed upon Obama taking the oath. I also, however, hold firm in the belief that we're in a worse position now than if Obama simply sat in the Oval Office and did nothing. We've added trillions to our debt, our unemployment rate remains high, we have very little to show for our money spent. We've grown the size of our government to new highs without doing anything appreciable to control expenditures. Our politicians continue living outside of reality, comfortable with their own retirement plans and health plans unavailable to the rest of us, and with nary a shred of evidence that they are good stewards of our money, with Obama the most visible and vocal advocate of spending (even more) money that we don't have.

It's tough to have an economic recovery when the people (rightly, IMHO) have essentially zero faith in our elected officials. As the guy with the big office, it's up to Obama to lead the parade and he quite simply comes across as a guy who's never had to turn a profit and never had to worry about where he'll get his next meal.

Might disagree on the details, but very little here overall to find fault with. well put.

I essentially agree with the argrument against "for profit" subsidies, but subsidies don't really work that way, do they? Do you choose to end corn farm subsidies since we're allowing the gov't to pick corn farmers over, say, alfalfa farmers? Do you end them for coal, oil & natural gas (some of the most heavily subsidized industries in the US)? Do you end them for video game makers, and beer brewers? Think about it: on top of all the money being spent on "non-profit" R&D likefermilab, sandia, DARPA, Los Alamos, research grants to academia etc etc etc, many many many times that is being "spent" (in quotes becuase its usually just a tax break) on for-profit industries. So wheres the line and what is worth it and what isn't? Its nice to put the microscope on the spending on green stuff, but its hypocritical to turn a blind eye elsewhere. Its also not necessarily the right thing to say that "x jobs cost y dollars, so each job cost z".. just because you're not getting an instantly high return doesn't mean that the industry isn't worth fostering.

[myv65]

You brought up corn subsidies, and as an old-time family farm kid I'll address that specific case with the understanding that I apply the same logic to other areas.

When I was a kid, family farms were a lot more common than today, average farm size was probably an order of magnitude or more smaller than today, and I don't think there were very many subsidies available. To be clear, that last bit is simply a hunch. I didn't get into the economics of the farm at the time, but I do very specifically remember the introduction of programs such as CRP, or the Crop Reduction Program, that paid farmers to let land sit idle under the guise that reduced production would yield higher prices, and all the ethanol subsidies didn't exist until quite recently.

Government is in the game of market manipulation, and their involvement has much in common with an oil slick. Once started they always expand and never shrink.

In the farming area particularly, the programs almost invariably give the greatest assistance to the farmers who need it least. Production costs do not scale linearly, and the big time farmers are able to produce far more product per hour and per dollar than the little guys. When you tie a "reward" to volumetric output, the impact to ROI increases with increased production efficiency. End result? The little guys have left the business.

Now this does have an upside. It goes back to Scooter's quote regarding digging with spoons. From a practical perspective I want farming to be as efficient as possible, and there is no argument against the raw efficiency of 36 row planters pulled behind 500 hp tractors against the old 6 row planter and 40 horsepower tractor we used to pull it. The money pumped into farming has accelerated other efficiency gains, too, such as rampant use of GPS. This reduces overlap in field work, targets fertilizer, herbicide, and nutrient application, and even allows combines to "pilot" grain wagon tractors for more efficient harvesting.

As for the downside, it's simply throwing money at an industry that often doesn't need it. Courtesy of ethanol incentives, the price of corn has never been higher. I don't claim to track it religiously, but it's around $8/bushel now. For an efficient farmer, the production cost should be on the order of ~$4/bushel. Now if you've got good crop land in the corn belt, yields tend to be on the high side of 200 bushels to the acre. You're looking at upwards of $800/acre profit. It's fairly normal for big guys around here to run 5000 acres, or $8M to $10M a year in revenue.

Now you can even put forth reasoning that the farmers recirculate that money, buying new equipment every couple of years, employing people to work the land, and paying a hefty load in taxes. OK, but why do you and I have to shovel money their direction when the markets would naturaly drive them toward efficiency and they already need to buy and maintain equipment? It's not unlike BD's RV / solar panel example. If you can afford an RV, I shouldn't have to help you buy solar panels.

Allow me to return to my current profession of engineering. What I see from excessive government intrusion into private business is what I'd call an unstable feedback loop. The government tries to artificially direct the market, but there's an inherent lag between observation, reaction, and result. I get that we can't function with zero government involvement / regulation, but I see a flip side. I see a tipping point, beyond which the odds of government actually being the cause of or increasing the severity of economic swings jumps dramatically.

Morgages used to be a pretty stable affair. Every year a small number of people would fall behind, and some would lose their homes. Then the government came along, twisted bankers arms to grant more loans, and lots of people started buying homes. Home prices rose far in excess of overall inflation. Then it all went "poof". Corn prices had remained stable for eons, as productivity increases offset rising overall cost of production. Then the government came along and began dumping money on ethanol subsidies. Big farmers are rolling in moola, in spite of record fuel costs, while Jose in Mexico can't afford his tortillas anymore. The archangel Obama descends on Solyndra, ignores the pleadings of lesser angels of government, and pronounces them "blessed". Fast forward a few months and we have half a billion down the tubes with nothing to show for it.

On the whole, I simply think government is far more involved in the markets than warranted, and that trend has picked up speed under Obama.

[jimzinsocal]

Long list here: http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...-deroy-murdock

[BlackDragon24]

I'd just like to go on record and say that this thread has been one of the best in TLR in a long time. Thanks to EVERYBODY for keeping it civil and informative. I love it.

[AMDScooter]

Long list here: http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...-deroy-murdock

More of the same here:

Green Jobs Training Program Falls Short, Should Return Funds -- IG

Throwing more money right down the crapper... 40% of which the gubberment borrows. There simply seems to be no sanity applied whatsoever. Just throw more money at it hoping something sticks. The way the gubberment handles itself with "green/alternative" energy reminds me of the habits of people with gambling issues. Just one more bet... this one is a sure thing! Except they gamble with OUR money... and our kids and grandkids money to boot.

[Enmore]

It's more a case of venture socialism than venture capitalism.

[Invictus]

Its not a free market system or true capitalism when the government subsidizes companies.

[Enmore]

115-year-old electric car gets same 40 miles to the charge as Chevy Volt

By Chris Bedford

Meet the Roberts electric car. Built in 1896, it gets a solid 40 miles to the charge — exactly the mileage Chevrolet advertises for the Volt, the highly touted $31,645 electric car General Motors CEO Dan Akerson called “not a step forward, but a leap forward.”

The executives at Chevrolet can rest easy for now. Since the Roberts was constructed in an age before Henry Ford’s mass production, the 115-year-old electric car is one of a kind.

But don’t let the car’s advanced age let you think it isn’t tough: Its present-day owner, who prefers not to be named, told The Daily Caller it still runs like a charm, and has even completed the roughly 60-mile London to Brighton Vintage Car Race

Now if President Grover Cleveland had backed this with government money they might have made more than 1 of them. Maybe as many as the 723 Chevy volts that were sold this September.



Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/14/11...#ixzz1atRvmEBg

[AMDScooter]

Another half billion ($529 million) taxpayer backed dollars to line the pockets of the lefts green gods algore and kaiser. Net.. a car built overseas (0 American manufacturing jobbies) that can go a whopping 32 miles on battery and gets 20mpg when the engine kicks in. A this can be yours for a mere $100K.

Green-jobs success: Jobs created … in Finland

Oh.. and press releases are being revised w/o notice to omit the names of companies that carry Solyndra type backing. All in the name of accuracy of course..

Oops: Energy Department contractors caught altering old press releases involving another troubled green-energy project

Anyone else think those billions could be better spent elsewhere or by not being spent at all?

[madhatter256]

Another half billion ($529 million) taxpayer backed dollars to line the pockets of the lefts green gods algore and kaiser. Net.. a car built overseas (0 American manufacturing jobbies) that can go a whopping 32 miles on battery and gets 20mpg when the engine kicks in. A this can be yours for a mere $100K.

Green-jobs success: Jobs created … in Finland

Oh.. and press releases are being revised w/o notice to omit the names of companies that carry Solyndra type backing. All in the name of accuracy of course..

Oops: Energy Department contractors caught altering old press releases involving another troubled green-energy project

Anyone else think those billions could be better spent elsewhere or by not being spent at all?

haha. Nope:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilmington_Assembly

The loan is to be used for the already shutdown saturn plant in delaware... where Biden is from...

[jimzinsocal]

Another half billion ($529 million) taxpayer backed dollars to line the pockets of the lefts green gods algore and kaiser. Net.. a car built overseas (0 American manufacturing jobbies) that can go a whopping 32 miles on battery and gets 20mpg when the engine kicks in. A this can be yours for a mere $100K.

Green-jobs success: Jobs created … in Finland

Oh.. and press releases are being revised w/o notice to omit the names of companies that carry Solyndra type backing. All in the name of accuracy of course..

Oops: Energy Department contractors caught altering old press releases involving another troubled green-energy project

Anyone else think those billions could be better spent elsewhere or by not being spent at all?

lol...always seems to be some dark cloud with these companies. I happened to see this earlier...and no...the company isnt directly involved...we are told here: http://green.autoblog.com/2011/10/21...ed-stock-scam/

But you know? As a curiosity...what is the company doing issuing a new preferred share deal after we gave them big bucks?

[jimzinsocal]

^^^This isnt what I read from this morning. I just dont get the stock offereing in addition to all this...unless its for loan holders.
Fisker has received a $528 million loan from U.S. Department of Energy's $25 billion Advanced Technologies Vehicle Manufacturing Loan Program.[11] $359 million is in support of Project NINA, to design, engineer and assemble (at the Boxwood Plant in Delaware) Fisker's second-generation sedan. Fisker aims to have a new, lower-priced plug-in hybrid (PHEV) for sale starting in 2012, and ramping up to volumes over 100,000/year.[12]
Fisker Automotive plans to use the remaining $169.3 million for engineering work to complete the company's first vehicle, the Fisker Karma, and to design the tools and equipment for manufacturing its plug-in hybrids.[11][13]



Edot: OK...I understand now...there were no shares see here http://www.insideline.com/fisker/kar...nders-ipo.html

[Dutchcedar]

haha. Nope:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilmington_Assembly

The loan is to be used for the already shutdown saturn plant in delaware... where Biden is from...

Let's get up to speed here... after thirty two miles, the twin turbo, 20 MPG real engine kicks in...

With the approval of the Obama administration, an electric car company that received a $529 million federal government loan guarantee is assembling its first line of cars in Finland, saying it could not find a facility in the United States capable of doing the work.

Vice President Joseph Biden heralded the Energy Department's $529 million loan to the start-up electric car company called Fisker as a bright new path to thousands of American manufacturing jobs. But two years after the loan was announced, the company's manufacturing jobs are still limited to the assembly of the flashy electric Fisker Karma sports car in Finland.

"There was no contract manufacturer in the U.S. that could actually produce our vehicle," the car company's founder and namesake told ABC News. "They don't exist here."

Henrik Fisker said the U.S. money has been spent on engineering and design work that stayed in the U.S., not on the 500 manufacturing jobs that went to a rural Finnish firm, Valmet Automotive.

"We're not in the business of failing; we're in the business of winning. So we make the right decision for the business," Fisker said. "That's why we went to Finland."

Let's break it down... the Fins spent spent a half a billion bucks of our money to design a car they'll build in Finland.

Half a billion bucks to design a car.

That's not using anything new.

Its a fancy hybrid.

Go to a Goodguys car show sometime. You'll see a bunch of hand built cars full of innovation and beautiful design. The most expensive costing a half million bucks or so. You could underwrite 1000 of 'em for what was pissed up a rope on this fiasco.

[Dutchcedar]

We should be ashamed of ourselves... well, ashamed of our government. Lately, we seem to get a hit like this every other day. Another half a billion pissed up a rope for this or that.

Off-topic... Rush was going on about a new program that will give free diapers to parents who have their kids in child care. Piss up some more money. Why not, its not like we're spending money we have.

[Dutchcedar]

Why is the car called the “Karma”?

Because “Thanks for the Money, Suckers, We’re Outta Here” wouldn’t fit on the hood ornament.

- Michelle Malkin