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Thread: Flu shots

  1. #46
    Joined
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    5,358

    Re: Flu shots

    Quote Originally Posted by kbohip View Post
    A LOT of people I know here have had this, including my wife and kids. To a lesser extent I had something that caused me to have headaches for a couple of days, trouble breathing while working out, and an overall stuffy head feeling. I and my family never got a fever. My teenage daughter got the worst of it with bad headaches and nausea. If it was the flu I had I'll never get a flu shot as it was no big deal to me.
    That's likely common cold caused by the other hundreds (or more) of viruses out there. It is possible to have mild symptoms or no symptoms at all of influenza also, so it's impossible to say for sure, but it can also be a lot more severe.

  2. #47
    Joined
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    20

    Re: Flu shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Pehu View Post
    I am at times occupied by the illusion of life.
    Yes, that 'persistent illusion,' as Einstein once called it. Totally understandable.

    I didn't say I don't consider them to be alive, I actually do, but even if I do, it isn't as simple as you make it out to be. The viruses are really only 'alive' after integrated into the host...
    It is best we not engage in circular reasoning, friend. Going down that road would be unproductive, although very simple as all we'd have to do is keep referring to posts 11 and 12

    One may not not observe much while studying microorganisms but their devastating effects - for e.g., Europe losing a third its population from the Bubonic Plague - speak to the fact that they are as alive as anything else... by any definition of the term. That they're only effective once in a host is not really relevant to the discussion; that is a given. It is how those life forms are meant to function. Should that fact, however, cause us to disregard them as not really alive while outside our bodies (on a door handle or airborne after a cough/sneeze)?

    They are in the documentation since the manufacturers are required to put them in the documentation.
    Agreed, but would they lie or make up side effects in order to place themselves in a bad light (and at a competitive disadvantage)? Arent the side effects listed because they were actually REAL AND OBSERVED during the manufacturer's trials? So how can you state that they have nothing to do w/ the flu shot?

    Correlation and causation do not go hand-in-hand.
    Which underscores the above point that causation is actually responsible for the listed side effects. Its usually not in the interest of drug companies to state correlation (which are considered weak) among the negatives of their products.

    Your arguments suggest that the facts are not clear to begin with. They're replete w/ uncertainties (probably, perhaps, etc.), which is ok (and only human), but should not be put forward as fact or proof. While I consider this thread friendly discussion and not a debate, I'd also say that that argument style serves to stifle constructive discourse. To avoid confusion, here is your original quote (post #14):

    Not all flu vaccines (most probably don't) contain live pathogens (and that's with the assumption you consider viruses to be 'alive'). And perhaps most of the side effects listed in the documentation have next to nothing to do with the flu shot.

    Again, it sounds not unlike posts 11 & 12.

    Probably most (if not all) countries in the world have some sort of emergency laws that forces people to take vaccines...
    see what I mean?
    ...but those laws aren't easily (or lightly) used.
    That is not actually the case. For a country to have such a law, it would also need the apparata, infrastructure and or systems in place to enforce it. The 'developing' ones dont have it, and the so-called developed ones consider it to be against certain fundamental principles like freedom of choice, liberty, etc. That is changing (or has changed) however, as the good old well-meaning UN [/s] has mandated that nations take such a position (I'll link to the document later).

    I'm really surprised that the 'land of the free' is something else again...
    Why the surprise? Did you actually fall for the freedom and democracy dogma? Well, here's hoping this is your wake up call.

    Hardly any are confirmed, but if they were, the number of flu deaths in the US is at least a few thousands per flu season.
    Here we go again! Re-read that slowly and explain where the logic is. Keep in mind post 13 and the health/death facts established by the so-called authorities in the links. And if it still makes sense to you after the fact, then surely you'd find my response fitting: there are no aliens, but if there are, there would be a lot of aliens... perhaps.

    There were over 3000 confirmed deaths during the 'swine flu epidemic'...
    Cite your sources.

    ...and still a significant number of people actually die because of influenza.
    Sure! Even after the CDC admitted that it does NOT know that number? Maybe you have a more credible body whose numbers you weigh more? Please share.

    Tell us, did you alter your lifestyle as a result of the heart disease and cancer death figures (killer # 1 & 2)? By far, they are more significant and alarming than flu deaths. Do you tend to avoid hospitals, doctors and prescription drugs because they are the #3 leading cause of death in the United States? Your arguments in this thread for flu vaccines - which sometimes kill - would suggest not. Lastly, 26 were killed in the recent school shootings in CT. If, as you say, the flu numbers are significant, and only 18 cases were confirmed by officials (2001), then surely 26 dwarfs 18. Did you join the recent anti-gun frenzy as a result? Did you change your life to reflect the above 'significance'?

  3. #48
    Joined
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    5,358

    Re: Flu shots

    Quote Originally Posted by ea1985 View Post
    Yes, that 'persistent illusion,' as Einstein once called it. Totally understandable.

    It is best we not engage in circular reasoning, friend. Going down that road would be unproductive, although very simple as all we'd have to do is keep referring to posts 11 and 12

    One may not not observe much while studying microorganisms but their devastating effects - for e.g., Europe losing a third its population from the Bubonic Plague - speak to the fact that they are as alive as anything else... by any definition of the term. That they're only effective once in a host is not really relevant to the discussion; that is a given. It is how those life forms are meant to function. Should that fact, however, cause us to disregard them as not really alive while outside our bodies (on a door handle or airborne after a cough/sneeze)?

    Agreed, but would they lie or make up side effects in order to place themselves in a bad light (and at a competitive disadvantage)? Arent the side effects listed because they were actually REAL AND OBSERVED during the manufacturer's trials? So how can you state that they have nothing to do w/ the flu shot?

    Which underscores the above point that causation is actually responsible for the listed side effects. Its usually not in the interest of drug companies to state correlation (which are considered weak) among the negatives of their products.

    Your arguments suggest that the facts are not clear to begin with. They're replete w/ uncertainties (probably, perhaps, etc.), which is ok (and only human), but should not be put forward as fact or proof. While I consider this thread friendly discussion and not a debate, I'd also say that that argument style serves to stifle constructive discourse. To avoid confusion, here is your original quote (post #14):

    Not all flu vaccines (most probably don't) contain live pathogens (and that's with the assumption you consider viruses to be 'alive'). And perhaps most of the side effects listed in the documentation have next to nothing to do with the flu shot.

    Again, it sounds not unlike posts 11 & 12.

    see what I mean? That is not actually the case. For a country to have such a law, it would also need the apparata, infrastructure and or systems in place to enforce it. The 'developing' ones dont have it, and the so-called developed ones consider it to be against certain fundamental principles like freedom of choice, liberty, etc. That is changing (or has changed) however, as the good old well-meaning UN [/s] has mandated that nations take such a position (I'll link to the document later).

    Why the surprise? Did you actually fall for the freedom and democracy dogma? Well, here's hoping this is your wake up call.

    Here we go again! Re-read that slowly and explain where the logic is. Keep in mind post 13 and the health/death facts established by the so-called authorities in the links. And if it still makes sense to you after the fact, then surely you'd find my response fitting: there are no aliens, but if there are, there would be a lot of aliens... perhaps.

    Cite your sources.

    Sure! Even after the CDC admitted that it does NOT know that number? Maybe you have a more credible body whose numbers you weigh more? Please share.

    Tell us, did you alter your lifestyle as a result of the heart disease and cancer death figures (killer # 1 & 2)? By far, they are more significant and alarming than flu deaths. Do you tend to avoid hospitals, doctors and prescription drugs because they are the #3 leading cause of death in the United States? Your arguments in this thread for flu vaccines - which sometimes kill - would suggest not. Lastly, 26 were killed in the recent school shootings in CT. If, as you say, the flu numbers are significant, and only 18 cases were confirmed by officials (2001), then surely 26 dwarfs 18. Did you join the recent anti-gun frenzy as a result? Did you change your life to reflect the above 'significance'?

    First I'll quote you
    Quote Originally Posted by ea1985 View Post
    I had given up on my reply (post #13) ever showing up. Why did it take an entire week?
    I guess one week is too much for me, but one month is perfectly acceptable for you? Einstein really is your man.

    You are often writing beside the point. E.g. why are you bringing up bubonic plague? Total lack of knowledge concerning micro-organisms? You should look up the definitions for 'virus' and 'bacteria' (and then some).

    You also choose your quotes as you please, then trying to discredit parts using arguments that would have actually been already been countered and proven invalid in my original post. Circular reasoning is your problem, not mine.

  4. #49
    Joined
    Dec 2000
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    2,357

    Re: Flu shots

    I'm still sick. Might just load up on drugs and goto work anyways tomorrow. Don't want to burn up all my paid leave or anything.
    Nuke em'.

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