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Thread: Entrapment

  1. #1
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    Entrapment

    Two kids (about 15) outside of the gas station tonight asked me if I would buy them dip. I said no. They asked me again when I was walking out, which seemed odd to me. I wouldn't have done it under any circumstances (for moral reasons), but I kind of suspected it was some kind of law enforcement sting because they asked me twice.

    But, as I was driving home, my libertarian brain kind of pondered the Constitutionality of it. I know from watching Cops and other police shows that law enforcement does set up decoy kids to try to catch adults buying underage kids beer or tobacco. How is that not entrapment?

    I can understand cops setting up sting operations to catch people buying/selling drugs or prostitution because the buyers/sellers would probably be doing that even if the cops weren't there. But, most adults don't actively seek out underage kids to buy beer or tobacco for. The crime wouldn't exist without law enforcement. Seems like entrapment to me, or at least a very grey area.

  2. #2
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    Re: Entrapment


  3. #3
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    Re: Entrapment

    I have that feeling of entrapment every time I use the phone or log on to my box. I check the sky for predator drones every time I go outside. I smile for the camera every time I catch a red light or stop along the road side to take a piss behind a bush.

    I feel entrapped every time I log in here...

    Trust me the government is watching out for you. It's all to protect you from those terroristas. Keep on giving up little pieces of your rights it's for your own good... Trust me...
    Last edited by tucker; 08-10-2013 at 09:19 AM.

  4. #4
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    Re: Entrapment

    Quote Originally Posted by Keven View Post
    Two kids (about 15) outside of the gas station tonight asked me if I would buy them dip. I said no. They asked me again when I was walking out, which seemed odd to me. I wouldn't have done it under any circumstances (for moral reasons), but I kind of suspected it was some kind of law enforcement sting because they asked me twice.

    But, as I was driving home, my libertarian brain kind of pondered the Constitutionality of it. I know from watching Cops and other police shows that law enforcement does set up decoy kids to try to catch adults buying underage kids beer or tobacco. How is that not entrapment?

    I can understand cops setting up sting operations to catch people buying/selling drugs or prostitution because the buyers/sellers would probably be doing that even if the cops weren't there. But, most adults don't actively seek out underage kids to buy beer or tobacco for. The crime wouldn't exist without law enforcement. Seems like entrapment to me, or at least a very grey area.
    Long post for a possible thing. In my state, decoys are used only towards businesses and only after a warning that it will occur. Our cops have more important things to do and better focus, licensing violations, than to waste time with your scenario. Good job feeding the paranoia based on what I read in the later post.
    Thomas Jefferson to John Page Fairfeilds Dec: 25. 1762.
    ... But the old-fellows say we must read to gain knowledge; and gain knowledge to make us happy and be admired. Mere jargon! Is there any such thing as happiness in this world? No: And as for admiration I am sure the man who powders most, parfumes most, embroiders most, and talks most nonsense, is most admired.

  5. #5
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    Re: Entrapment

    Quote Originally Posted by Keven View Post
    Two kids (about 15) outside of the gas station tonight asked me if I would buy them dip. I said no. They asked me again when I was walking out, which seemed odd to me. I wouldn't have done it under any circumstances (for moral reasons), but I kind of suspected it was some kind of law enforcement sting because they asked me twice.

    But, as I was driving home, my libertarian brain kind of pondered the Constitutionality of it. I know from watching Cops and other police shows that law enforcement does set up decoy kids to try to catch adults buying underage kids beer or tobacco. How is that not entrapment?

    I can understand cops setting up sting operations to catch people buying/selling drugs or prostitution because the buyers/sellers would probably be doing that even if the cops weren't there. But, most adults don't actively seek out underage kids to buy beer or tobacco for. The crime wouldn't exist without law enforcement. Seems like entrapment to me, or at least a very grey area.
    Does not seem a likely candidate for a police sting based on the info. Sounds like the kids just wanted some chew. Even when the coppers set up stings for prostitution and drugs the perp has to initiate the transaction. They don't send a phony hooker to a corner asking dudes if they want a BJ or a phony drug dealer out asking everyone if they wanna dime baggie or rock. And even when the perp initiates it's not always a slam dunk. I've been on a jury in a solicitation case which was IMHO a slam dunk. It was recorded. Dude asked, went to hotel, money exchanged for services... dude walked.

    **edit, Thinking about it a bit more, it might have been some undercover media outlet making something outta nothing as well. Kinda like when MSDNC sends folks dressed like they are from the ME to NASCAR fishing for racism and finds none.

    Last edited by AMDScooter; 08-10-2013 at 11:22 AM.
    "The most dangerous myth is the demagoguery that business can be made to pay a larger share, thus relieving the individual. Politicians preaching this are either deliberately dishonest, or economically illiterate, and either one should scare us...
    Only people pay taxes, and people pay as consumers every tax that is assessed against a business."


    -The Gipper


  6. #6
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    Re: Entrapment

    A while back, before I retired, I was sitting in a bar in Ft. Lauderdale when an attractive young lady sat down next to me and asked if "I wanted a date?". I looked at her and decided she was way to attractive and clean to be a street hooker. I decided to have some fun with this obvious sting. I told her "I'll show you mine if you show me yours." She got a puzzled look on her face. Then I pulled out my badge and held it up. Without saying a word she got up and left the bar. I asked the bartender if he had seen her before. He said he'd never seen her in the bar and he knew most of the "working girls" in the area by sight. You have to have fun when the opportunity presents itself.
    FRH
    If more sane people were armed the crazy ones would get off fewer shots.

    Win 7 Premium SP1 / MX 15 KDE / MEPIS 11

  7. #7
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    Re: Entrapment

    Quote Originally Posted by otoc View Post
    Good job feeding the paranoia based on what I read in the later post.
    They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

    This was written by Franklin, sometime shortly before February 17, 1775 as part of his notes for a proposition at the Pennsylvania Assembly, as published in Memoirs of the life and writings of Benjamin Franklin (1818). A variant of this was published as:

    Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

    This was used as a motto on the title page of An Historical Review of the Constitution and Government of Pennsylvania. (1759); the book was published by Franklin; its author was Richard Jackson, but Franklin did claim responsibility for some small excerpts that were used in it.
    Your fantasy of safety in big government is only surpassed by your fantasy of equality in big government.

    You will have neither...

  8. #8
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    Re: Entrapment

    Quote Originally Posted by tucker View Post
    Your fantasy of safety in big government is only surpassed by your fantasy of equality in big government.

    You will have neither...
    Sure, how can I respond to such thoughts where your fantasy is only surpassed by your fantasy? You obviously base your opinion of me not by my actions which would say you are wrong, but with quotes you know absolutely nothing about...
    http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/res...ity_wittes.pdf

    Sure, whatever you say.
    Thomas Jefferson to John Page Fairfeilds Dec: 25. 1762.
    ... But the old-fellows say we must read to gain knowledge; and gain knowledge to make us happy and be admired. Mere jargon! Is there any such thing as happiness in this world? No: And as for admiration I am sure the man who powders most, parfumes most, embroiders most, and talks most nonsense, is most admired.

  9. #9
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    Re: Entrapment

    Quote Originally Posted by otoc View Post
    Sure, how can I respond to such thoughts where your fantasy is only surpassed by your fantasy? You obviously base your opinion of me not by my actions which would say you are wrong, but with quotes you know absolutely nothing about...
    http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/res...ity_wittes.pdf

    Sure, whatever you say.

    Some describe the Brookings Instituion as liberal others describe it as centrist. "Centrist"? Isn't that what you claim to be...

    Benjamin Wittes? Interesting fellow with large ties to the Harvard Law School. He's not a lawyer but he is described as a journalist? Hmmmm...

    http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/...port-democrats

    We're not "cherry picking" our sources of information again, are we?
    Last edited by tucker; 08-11-2013 at 10:48 AM.

  10. #10
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    Re: Entrapment

    ^^^ .90% looks bigger than less than 1%.

  11. #11
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    Re: Entrapment

    ^^^

    Very few people who quote these words, however, have any idea where they come from or what Franklin was really saying when he wrote them.
    They appear originally in a 1755 letter Franklin is presumed to have written on behalf of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the colonial governor during the French and Indian War. The letter was a salvo in a power struggle between the governor and the Assembly over funding for security on the frontier, one in which the Assembly wished to tax the lands of the Penn family, which ruled Pennsylvania from afar, to raise money for defense against French and Indian attacks. The governor kept vetoing the Assembly’s efforts at the behest of the family, which had appointed him and did not want its lands taxed.
    I got farther than I usually get in otoc links all the way to the first presumption. That's where I decided to quit wasting my time an eye sight...

  12. #12
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    Re: Entrapment

    Quote Originally Posted by otoc View Post
    Long post for a possible thing. In my state, decoys are used only towards businesses and only after a warning that it will occur. Our cops have more important things to do and better focus, licensing violations, than to waste time with your scenario. Good job feeding the paranoia based on what I read in the later post.
    Relax, bubba. Part of it was I was just trying to gin up some conversation around here.

    Quote Originally Posted by AMDScooter View Post
    Even when the coppers set up stings for prostitution and drugs the perp has to initiate the transaction. They don't send a phony hooker to a corner asking dudes if they want a BJ or a phony drug dealer out asking everyone if they wanna dime baggie or rock.
    Yeah, good point.

  13. #13
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    Re: Entrapment

    Quote Originally Posted by Keven View Post
    Relax, bubba. Part of it was I was just trying to gin up some conversation around here.
    You accomplished that much and more. We traveled from entrapment all the way to revisionist history...

  14. #14
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    Re: Entrapment

    Quote Originally Posted by tucker View Post
    You accomplished that much and more. We traveled from entrapment all the way to revisionist history...
    Yes you did supply that complete with the whiteboard of possible connections devoid of anything that countered the article. Sure.
    Thomas Jefferson to John Page Fairfeilds Dec: 25. 1762.
    ... But the old-fellows say we must read to gain knowledge; and gain knowledge to make us happy and be admired. Mere jargon! Is there any such thing as happiness in this world? No: And as for admiration I am sure the man who powders most, parfumes most, embroiders most, and talks most nonsense, is most admired.

  15. #15
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    Re: Entrapment

    Quote Originally Posted by Keven View Post
    Relax, bubba. Part of it was I was just trying to gin up some conversation around here.
    Gee tiger. I thought I was on both counts. Guess its not conversation around here if its something you choose not to hear.
    Thomas Jefferson to John Page Fairfeilds Dec: 25. 1762.
    ... But the old-fellows say we must read to gain knowledge; and gain knowledge to make us happy and be admired. Mere jargon! Is there any such thing as happiness in this world? No: And as for admiration I am sure the man who powders most, parfumes most, embroiders most, and talks most nonsense, is most admired.

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