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  1. #1
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    The TPP and Beyond

    This has been one of the few meeting grounds between conservatives and liberals, republicans and democrats, labor unions and right-to-work people in the US. To see names like Huckabee and Warren on the same side is a closing of a pretty major chasm. Regardless, this is something that doesn't have a thread of its own.

    So I'm opening a thread where we can talk all things trade- using the Trans Pacific Partnership as the starting point.

    A little background-

    The TPP and its TBD future agreements find their roots in NAFTA which until recently has been a non-starter. Outsourcing did not find its first footing under Bush, but Clinton who was heavily "subsidized" by Chinese interests and his impeachment might have happened had his involvement been latched onto and investigated.

    However, in tag-team fashion, George Bush jr opened the flood-gates while Obama has done nothing to staunch the bleeding. In fact, Obama appointed outsourcing CEOs to run his foreign trade affairs councils. If you don't believe it, I'll give you one darling child for a starting point:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_...ical_donations

    As I'm reading the TPP, one thing (I've actually- uhmmm- expected for a while) is significant by its absence in the TPP ... China. ESPEClALLY Taiwan. In fact-

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/w...meet/75357588/
    The presidents of China and Taiwan broke with 66 years of Cold War tradition Saturday, shaking hands and exchanging warm words at the first leader-to-leader summit the two rivals have held since a civil war split them asunder in 1949.

    China’s Xi Jinping and Taiwan’s Ma Ying-jeou — leaders of the same parties today that battled for control of the mainland seven decades ago — staged their historic, but short meeting on neutral territory in the Southeast Asian city state of Singapore.

    In the ballroom of a five-star hotel packed with journalists, the two men approached each other in front of a plain yellow backdrop — the traditional color of Chinese emperors — and held each other's grip for over a minute before disappearing behind closed doors.

    In remarks relayed from the conference room, Xi spoke first, praising Ma, who has been president since 2008, for helping to improve relations between their two governments and reiterating China’s desire for eventual reunification.
    Now we're being fed a line about how the TPP is to provide a trade block to help stem many of China's trade abuses.

    I'm going to give you a little forewarning: Don't buy it. Outsourcing is still going on with the Chinese and insourcing with Indians is almost obscene. What I think you are seeing is stage setting done with cooperation among key parties. Russia may be another story because of oil, but the Chinese have been playing both sides.

    Bottom line: The US is too terrified to do anything meaningful about China.

    The TPP is about giving control to banking and corporate interests- which have little or nothing to do with your own. It's NOT about getting payback with China. At over 5500 pages, I don't need to read it to know it's trojan horse legislation like the Federal Reserve Act. I'll let you know if and where I find the Greeks who are bearing gifts.
    Last edited by Skennar; 11-08-2015 at 04:38 PM. Reason: some editing
    American Public Education Made Me Ignorant and MSM Keeps Me Stupid.

  2. #2
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    Re: The TPP and Beyond

    Crickets in this thread. But I get it.

    It's a slow read- even for me. And I have other things going on. I'll try to simplify it- but you have to understand that there is a lot of finger pointing to other documents you really have to know first.

    But I will give you a key observation right now-

    ALMOST EVERYONE WILL GIVE UP ON READING THE TPP LEGISLATION BEFORE THEY GET TO CHAPTER 2.
    - I bet many of your legislators have or will too.
    - I bet the authors are counting on it.
    - This thing has a lot of "promises" in it that snake oil salesmen will be quick to point at. They KNOW you won't read any further.

    My advice- this is the #1 reason to make sure this thing never sees the light of day. It will be too difficult for most people to understand (good luck!) and comply with AND IT WILL BE TOO EASY FOR BIG CORPORATIONS TO EXPLOIT.

    I'll leave that for what it is. My point: If it's too difficult for the layman (let alone the journeymen) to understand, it shouldn't see the floor of our legislature. Most of your legislators are not equipped or experienced to deal with it without soliciting for outside help- which will consist of corporate lobbyists, lawyers, spin doctors AND $$$$$???
    Last edited by Skennar; 11-10-2015 at 10:25 AM.
    American Public Education Made Me Ignorant and MSM Keeps Me Stupid.

  3. #3
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    Re: The TPP and Beyond

    Kudos to ya for getting into this mess, but after having gone through the "read it" bulldung of Obamacare, only 2400 pages or so, and that not going well... I doubt this will either.

    Your last point hits the nail, with one clarification... that the vast majority of legislators have not proven to be any more capable of understanding this stuff better than laymen (see Obamacare).

  4. #4
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    Re: The TPP and Beyond

    Thank A Democrat... Vote DNC

    AOC... New Leader DNC ....

  5. #5
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    Re: The TPP and Beyond

    More fun with TPP-

    Some notes I made reading the first 3 sections so far-

    1. GATT (heavily referenced) is 550 pages. 1/10 the size of this turd.

    2. They are going to try and phase out custom duties and tariffs with annualized reductions (There's a lot of interesting language here that could be conflicted to mean whatever they want, but ... I think that's the point. Regardless, these are being "eliminated" by phase.)

    3. Puerto Rico is considered a regional government of the US- with all the states and DC (Guam, VI, etc. not included). Yeah- this could mean something.

    4. They are micro-managing export duties where national resources and products are called out by code (aka HS- Harmonized System- numbers).

    My take so far? Basically: They are tearing down a lot of nationalistic regulations between partners. This creates it's own independent trading block with a managed schedule of identified resources and products. This is consistent with what I have been hearing and sets the stage for another level of governing.

    China will likely be building it's own IIUIC. Etc.

    The world is starting to build a global economy with distinct regions of trade.

    5. Eric Blair had 3 distinct and cooperatively beligerent regions in the world of 1984 (this one would be more like Oceania).

    The new world order is taking form. What did Eric know?

    More later.
    Last edited by Skennar; 11-11-2015 at 09:42 AM.
    American Public Education Made Me Ignorant and MSM Keeps Me Stupid.

  6. #6
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    Re: The TPP and Beyond

    The way of today's world. Bury them in detail, mountains and mountains of useless crap. Blabber on with the jargon. It's everywhere - bought some Allagra last night and was handed another 18" long cash register receipt. Coupons, advertisement, garbage - I just toss 'em.

    It's a blending of techniques: The Filibuster, with a few added twists - dump enough and they are overwhelmed or bored and walk away depending upon the circumstance. The Age of Information wasn't envisioned to be bastardized and misused in the fashion. What a shame.
    Last edited by SteveW; 11-13-2015 at 12:35 PM.

  7. #7
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    Re: The TPP and Beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveW View Post
    The way of today's world. Bury them in detail, mountains and mountains of useless crap. Blabber on with the jargon. It's everywhere - bought some Allagra last night and was handed another 18" long cash register receipt. Coupons, advertisement, garbage - I just toss 'em.

    It's a blending of techniques: The Filibuster, with a few added twists - dump enough and they are overwhelmed or bored and walk away depending upon the circumstance. The Age of Information wasn't envisioned to be bastardized and misused in the fashion. What a shame.
    Actually, it's the government and their corporate masters doing whatever they want, whenever they want. What "legal" grounds do you have to argue otherwise?
    American Public Education Made Me Ignorant and MSM Keeps Me Stupid.

  8. #8
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    Re: The TPP and Beyond

    Okay. One of the things I found ironic about this is that Obama is going to fight the weather but still pimp the TPP that Global Warming critics have harsh words for.

    Let me make this clear. What's going down is not about fighting thermogeddon or about trade, but the rollout of a new world order that is not going to be held accountable by anyone.

    First, let me say that the TPP is a lot of pointing to other documents. In this case, it's mostly the Hydrocarbons Law made with Mexico. This law has a bunch of articles that talk about how to get fossil fuels. The bottom line is that Climate Change and other issues are simply points of "Arbitration".

    This is a key word of the TPP legislation. The key vehicle here are the Arbitral Tribunals that are held accountable to ... TADDA! ... the Commission chartered by the TPP. These tribunals are a whole new branch of government that handles disputes and settlements of issues of trade like the Climatology religion is sure to be. Arbital tribunals can both enforce and challenge rules and regulations and manage the disputes and settlements. It is an attorneys' wet dream and basically murders the chance at any justice for people who can't afford one. And these tribunals have NO accountability to anyone but the Commission.

    So, where you stand on the Carbon issue is fundamentally irrelevant and subject to corporate will.

    Whoever the hell that may be. Take a good guess ....
    Last edited by Skennar; 11-24-2015 at 11:26 AM.
    American Public Education Made Me Ignorant and MSM Keeps Me Stupid.

  9. #9
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    Re: The TPP and Beyond

    I have to keep coming back to this because this is the most damnable piece of legislation I've seen. I can't believe that any American, Christian or otherwise, would back this piece of political poison and the President should be invoking the constitution to remove it from consideration for vote. To me, this is positive proof that our legislators are either too taken with by international corporations or too stupid to read and are trusting the hopelessly corrupted leaders of the herd.

    Basically, this legislation gives the TPP committee powers that can ignore the US government and constitution. Moreover, if there is something the committee doesn't like they can invent a case and sue the government for billions. I made the observation that they can use this thing to ram the climate change agenda through this committee. Chapter 20 (Titled "Environment" FTW) basically proves I'm right. And before you convert this thread to a climate change debate, just know that they can ram just about anything through they want- whether it is an issue you like or not. It basically steals the power away from national governments and obfuscates what they can do about it. And it can be used to bypass the constitution AND they are having it voted on unconstitutionally with a straight up vote in congress. I bet they will have this turd deployed ASAP- before this legislature realizes how badly it fukked up.

    I will try and make this 5500+ pager short for you: This is a bald faced overthrow of our government by international corporate interests. It and other trade agreements give them the ability to manipulate and create markets inside of everyone's countries- from labor to consumer. They will use "economics" to establish a new "constitution" and plutocracy. They will basically own you.

    My view: This is not just a vote, but a pitched battle for anything decent you ever knew. You ever want to speak freely and be represented ever again, you better see this thing voted down- and repeal the TPA ASAP.
    Last edited by Skennar; 12-01-2015 at 09:27 AM. Reason: added repeal of the TPA + Chpt 20 Title
    American Public Education Made Me Ignorant and MSM Keeps Me Stupid.

  10. #10
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    Re: The TPP and Beyond

    ^ Probably why Obama and his "supporters" love it...

  11. #11
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    Re: The TPP and Beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveW View Post
    ^ Probably why Obama and his "supporters" love it...
    The truth is, Steve, that Obama had to betray a lot of his constituency and party members to support it. If you remember,THE REPUBLICANS ARE THE HEAVY BACKERS OF THIS BILL. And I suspect it is mostly BECAUSE OF SPONSORS AND LEADERSHIP that many of them are voting for it. For Obama, he can Blackmail, Bribe and Bully bitches like Pelosi to support or "stage" opposition, but their grass roots people are waking up to the size of betrayal this president and his cronies are doing.

    It is why it is time that real people, not party, political or financial ones need to show up at the OK corral before noon and convince the congress to vote this thing down. I have a feeling this is the bill that transcends our government to one we no longer have a say in. The TPP is sort of like chartering the IRS on steroids.
    Last edited by Skennar; 12-01-2015 at 12:38 PM.
    American Public Education Made Me Ignorant and MSM Keeps Me Stupid.

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